Did made guys ever change families?

It was sometimes known for guys to serve one family as an associate before being passed on to another where they were subsquently made.
For example, Sammy Gravano, Gerrard Pappa and "Donnie Brasco" all began mob life with the Colombos but ended up with the Gambinos, Genovese and Bonnano's respectively (Brasco was on the brink of being made before his real ID was revealed).

Brasco moved of his own accord (Mirra and Lefty were juicer targets than any of Jilly Grecas crew).
Gravano shifted because he fell out with Shorty Spero's brother and the Colombo hierachy didnt want any future problems.
I dont know why Pappa moved to the Genovese? (perhaps the Colombo's were sick of him? - LOL)

Anyway, all the above men were not made when they had their mob transfers - did any men ever move to a different family AFTER they were made?

The only one I can think of quickly would be Albert Gallo but I'm not sure that he was really made or not when he switched from the Profaci Family to the Genovese Family. And that was a very special case.

I think Trafficante might have had a few guys who switched from Chicago or Cleveland to him.

Usually I think that once you're a formal member, that's it-no refunds or returns.

What about Jimmy Fratianno? He went from the Chicago Outfit to the Los Angeles crime family.

That's a good call Sonny. I'm not sure off the top of my head when Fratianno was made but he was variously involved with Chicago, Cleveland and LA.

But the Outfit isn't a traditional Family, so technically . . .

Yeah. Also at one point Chicago claimed hegemony over everything to its west anyway so moving from LA to Chicago or back again may have been seen as an internal transfer. I don't know...

And not only that, they also claimed to be in charge .

You've been spending too much time with Olivant .

1951 meeting notes...
Humphreys (to Rosselli) : "Tell the boys out there in LA, St. Louis, Memphis and Kansas City that we claim hegemony over their activities."

Rosselli: "Tell them we claim what"?

Accardo: "You know. Hegemony!!!"

Ricca: "What are you , uncouth or something. Hegemony. It means we're the hedge funds".

Accardo: "Da big wheels, like. They gotta hedge bets with our wire service and give us our money. Thus the word hegemony. Right, Hump?"

Humphreys: (sigh) "Yes, Tony, you've got it exactly..."

And he's immensely better off for it.

is that really the meeting notes?
btw associates could switch to other families easy right? i mean you could be an associate and be in business with multiple families?

I'm pretty sure the word origin for 'hegemony' is the Greek 'hegemonia', and more than sure Connecticut is the hedge fund capital of the world,tho Chi has some Bears and Bulls around, too..

Yes, this happened for example with Sammy Gravano who went from the Colombos to the Gambinos in the earl 1970s.

No those aren't meeting notes. I was being sarcastic.

Yes, you could be an associate and be in business with multiple groups. Pistone talks about this in his book. Sometimes, though especially if you were an "earner" or just happened to be more amenable to some people, a captain or soldier would put it "on record" that you belonged to a certain group.

but sometimes there were heated discussions, and sitdowns as pistone describes. Remember, he came into trouble with that psyco, whats his name? He was murdered a couple of years ago, cant remember his name. He wanted money from pistone, and lefty made sure everything was settled.

Tony Mirra..

Nick Bianco belonged to the Colombo Family before moving to New England & becoming the Patriarca Underboss. Jackie DiNorsio was originally from the Bruno Family before swapping to the Lucchese. Jimmy the Weasel tranferred from Chicago didnt he? Hm. Ah yeah Sonny_Black, you mentioned Frattiano.
Im sure theres at least a couple more, stuffed if i can remember but.

Ack whatzizname was it Stephen "The Whale" Cino that swapped from Buffalo to LA?
& Pete Milano's father Anthony was the Cleveland Underboss before moving the family out to LA (& joining the Family)
Im pretty sure Nick Licata was made in Detroit before becoming LA Boss. Theres definitely a fair bit of it in LA from memory. Not mentioning all the guys that came from interstate as an associate & got made in LA, like Mike Rizzitello, or Porno Mike Esposito, or you get the idea. Hm. Lips Moceri? (actually i think he went the other way, leaving LA for Cleveland.

There might be a few exceptions that prove the rule, although even they are debated over, but generally speaking it's almost unheard of for a made guy to transer to another family. Once a guy is made, he is in that family for life. But there are many examples of guys being associated with one family and later getting made into another.

Tony Mirra yes... mean motherfucker.
And what about the Zips, they were loyal to the families in the old country. So they to could not be "made" again with the NY families.

Thats pretty interesting. I see that logic with guys like Bobby Luisi, wiseguys that would never have been made by the neighbourhood guys that actually knew them, so instead gets made by some other Family.

What about Russel Bufalino supposedly stepping in as interim Boss of the Genovese Family for a time? Its come up in a few sources. Sorta like a one off?

Were their not a couple of Zips made into the Bonanno Family over the years? Guys like George From Canada, Baldo Amato, Giovanni Ligamarri; were they at any time formally inducted?

Nothing for nothing (here: my few cents) Tony Mirra was IMO one of those creepy guys. Like Tommy Karate, or Mad Sam DeStefano from back in the day.

I think they still had loyalty to the families in italy, they were just hired for new york duties i think. But George from Canada, was he a zip?
Wasnt he a former associate of the Rizzuto family?

Cesare Bonventre was a zip who became a Capo at the ridiculously young age of 28!!!!!!

Yes, Tony Mirra was a nasty son of a bitch.
Pistone says he was the most intimidating man he met during his 6 years undercover.
Even other made guys where afraid of Tony so its no suprise that Mirra went into hiding upon the mob learning who Donnie really was - people would have been falling over themselves to whack him (Mirra).
In the end Joey Massino handed the contract to his uncle and he arranged Mirra's murder in Febuary 1982.

he sure was handsome when you look at the surveillance photos, he has class

In the booh Making Jack Falcone Greg DePalma tells Falcone that Robert Vaccaro was a "Luke" meaning a Lucchese. He had just gotten out of State prison and was friendly with Gambino administration and was assigned to liason between DePalme and the admin and he was said to be the acting capo of Greg DePalm's crew...

i didnt know luke meant lucchese but that makes sense, he prob wasnt a made lucchese guy tho...

I think Joe "the rat" Valachi was made as a Lucchese. He switched too Genovese's. I think I saw that on the Mobsters TV series. I believe family switching maybe was more common at one time than we tought. I will research this.

As far as I can tell, from The Valachi Papers, he was made in Maranzano's proto-Bonnannos and was transferred to the Genoveses after the Castellamarse War.

Also, was Nicky Scarfo Jr made in Philly first?

No, Nicky Jr was never a made guy in Philly.

Nicky Jr got made into the Lucchese family as a favor to his father from Vic Amuso. It was for his protection from those in the Philly family who wanted to take him out.

was there any other reason to take jr out besides his father demoting merlino's family?

Scarfo initially wanted "kill and bury" Chuckie, Larry, and Joey Merlino in '86. In Blood & Honor, Caramandi claims that Leonetti was pushing to kill Joey even after Chuckie was in jail for that bribery thing.

I think that's the story behind Merlino's motive.

In valachis genovese chart it says carmine persico was a soldier was that true or was it a mistake ?

Those charts are legendary. They are extremely interesting. However they are not 100 percent accurate. Persico is one of the dudes who are misplaced on the charts and there are others as well. Natale Evola for example, who is listed as a Lucchese member, should had been placed on the Bonanno chart instead.

Carmine Persico´s father was a member of the Genoveses though. They shared the same name which may have confused the investigators back then.
Valachi did give plenty of names, but not all of the names placed on the charts came from Valachi. The FBN and other law enforcement agencies contributed to the charts as well.

John "Futto" Biele (previously with the Genoveses) switched to the Patriarca Family in mid 1960s. Reasons unknown. But according to some FBI documents, Biele was not particulary popular with the Genovese bosses. I think they may have suspected him being an informant.
It also seems that most of the members in Bonanno´s west coast faction were allowed to switch membership to Families based in California after the Bananas War.

patriarca had a couple guys come and go theres nick bianco who some how was sent to help in the colombo/gallo war and was a capo according to scarpa was 1 of colombos favorites but right before colombo got hit he was back to rhode island i think he was tipped off. then the guy henry tameleo who was in the bonanno family moved to the boston era and was consig. jr russo was with paul vario in the 60tys probaly just asscoiate. i read the sam the plumber book if that guy corcky was made in 1 family but transferd to sams family and alot of the family didnt trust him for a while, then i read d.b. bernado was with sam's family and released to the gambinos probaly cause he made so much money in manhattan. its something big paul probaly wanted the guy d.b. was the biggest porno guy in america in the late 70tys. connected in new england, florida, and cali.

Yes, you are right about Bianco. He was made into the Colombo Family in 1963 so that he would have an easier job to work out a truce between the warring factions. Gallos seems to have had respect for him as a persona but didn´t recognize him as an authority until he was made. He was appointed caporegime in 1970 but without a crew. I think Colombo had promised him at least a couple of soldiers but this promise never materialized. Eventually, Colombo and Bianco had a fall out and Bianco was demoted to the rank of a soldier. According to Greg Scarpa, Bianco switched to the Patriarca Family in 1973. That´s two years after the Colombo shooting.
Tameleo was originally a Brooklynite before moving to Rhode Island. But I haven´t seen anything (evidence wise) that suggests that Tameleo had been a Bonanno member.
Robert DiBernardo started out as an associate with the DeCavalcantes but wasn´t made with that Family. He transfered to Castellano before being made in 1977 and was first put in the same crew as Tommy Bilotti (not sure Bilotti was a capo at that time), before switching to Zappi crew.

Stefano Randazzo was a Cleveland made guy who was so close to Trafficante in Miami that he became Santo's driver for a while.

Agostino and VIncent Amato were two made Gambino guys (father and son) who were part of Trafficante's Miami crew, Vincent up to his death in the early 1990s.

On another blog someone suggested that "Patsy Ryan" Eboli may have switched from the Genovese to Colombo's after his brother Tom was killed in early 1970's. I've never read anything to suggest this actually happened though. Anyone know?

Jimmy Fratianno and Johnny Rosselli were part of the LA family before switching to the Outfit (Fratianno would later switch back).

there were the gallo bros who transferred over to the genovese from the colombos

Anthony Milano never switched families. He just had a lot of business interests on the West Coast and in Vegas. He held on to the title of underboss of the Cleveland family until the 1970s. Although by that time he was underboss in name only as other guys were acting in his place (most notably Frank Brancato). He spent his later years in Cleveland where he passed away.

Licata was indeed made in Detroit, but I think (and this is just a guess) that Morceri was made in Cleveland after leaving L.A.

Patsy Ryan was a pretty high profile guy around that time so I would think that Scarpa would have known if this switch to the Colombos actually occurred. But there is nothing in Scarpa´s files that says this. (If it has not been redacted that is.)
What you could do is ask the poster (if he´s still active) what his sources are. Some sources are more creditable and reliable than others.

I would think that Patsy Ryan changed crews within the Genovese Family after his brother´s death and after being demoted. So he might have found himself under a different captain than Gigante, who took over the crew. This could be the source of the confusion. But I have never came across any reliable info saying he switched Families.

Yes, but keep in mind that Albert Gallo wasn´t made when this occurred. I think it´s easier with associates to change affiliation than made members.

Roselli was an outfit guy all the way. He was sent to LA in the 1940s but never switched membership to that Family.

Are you sure about that? Someone at the other forum also thought that Joey Gallo wasn't a made member.

I´m positivly sure Sonny. I´m kinda surprised you would think that Joey Gallo was not a member. He was shelved but still a member. After the Colombo hit, he was totally ousted. You can find this in the Scarpa files.
If you´re still uncertain, use NARA Record number 124-10293-10244 (to view another document) when visiting the very useful Mary Ferrell Foundation site. Here´s a partial excerpt from page 3 and 4 of that document (wich is dated 1968):

"Informant was shown photographs of various individuals who have been connected with Cosa Nostra and he commented as follows:

CARMINE CONSALVO Proposed member In the GAMBINO family
DAVID RAVA Son of TOMMY RAVA Not a member
ALFRED J. CIMEI Not a member
HARRY FONTANA Capodeeina in COLOMBO family
SALVATORE D`AMBROSIO Soldier in COLOMBO family
PHIL FONTANO Soldier in the COLOMBO family, under Harry Fontana
FREDDIE LA PONZINA Soldier in COLOMBO family
ANTHONY LA PONZINA Soldier in COLOMBO family
LAWRENCE LAMPASI Not a member
ANTHONY LEONE Member of COLOMBO family (not SCIACCA family)
FRANK ILLIANO Not a member
LAWRENCE GALLO Deceased member of COLOMBO family
JOSEPH GALLO Member of COLOMBO family
LOUIS GEORGIANO Possibly dead. Under SARO MOGAVERO in GENOVESE family
ALBERT GALLO not a member
ANTHONY BONASERA Soldier in COLOMBO family"

If you read the document (all of it) you will find that this particular informant was extremely reliable. He might have been a highranking member.

You can find tons of documents on the site stating that Larry and Joey were members, but Albert was not. (Throughout the 1960s that is.)

Roselli was bootlegging in Los Angeles in the mid 1920s with Tony Cornero.

When Jack Dragna died in 1956, Roselli was a candidate to take over the family, but DeSimone was selected. After that, he was able to switch back to the Outfit since he already knew Ricca and Gianacana. This was documented in The Last Mafioso.

any ideas who this informant was? scarpa sr?

"any ideas who this informant was? scarpa sr?"

Dapps, it could have been Scarpa.
The informant does provide info on mostly Brooklyn based mobsters. I think all of them in the excerpt in my post were Brooklyn based. So we can assume the informant himself was based in Brooklyn. Also, most of them are connected or with the Colombos.
He talks about the Robilotto murder (a capo with the Gambinos) as well, which seems to suggest he had some inside info on that.
He also talks about Gambino´s crew in Baltimore and claim he was at the Patsy Corbi funeral with Carmine Lombardozzi and another Gambino guy. In addition he gives some info on how that crew got started. This seems to suggest the informant was a Gambino. But who knows?

Oh...I wasn´t aware that I can post links to documents on the MFF site, since it is a paysite. Here is the ducument, 6 pages:

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=1216978

Surprised nobody mentioned "Fat" Jack DiNorscio formerly of the Philly Mob, came over to the Luccheses, I believe.

was he a made guy?

I always assumed he was a made member based on that he was able to pull of a rebellion against a reputable boss. The source you post seems credible, but with member does he actually mean a made member? Sometimes certain associates are identified as members as well.

Yes he does.

Then it is agreed. Joey Gallo was a made member and Hairyknuckles will give protection with his source in the East.

Touché

Just found something really shocking that I've never seen posted here before. John 'Johnny Keys' Simone, the Newark capo who was ordered dead by the Commission around Caponigro's death was Stefano Magaddino's top killer. He killed 10 or so men and finally killed a guy for slapping Magaddino. There was so much heat that he transferred to Philadelphia and worked his way up to Capo.

Not sure if he was made but I'm going to assume yes.

^^^^he was killed by Gravano and Milito

One guy that hasn't been mentioned is Valachi, although it might just be semantics because he was made prior to the Five Families being divied up.

I've read "The Valachi Papers" three or four times, but I haven't read it in about ten years. I recall that Valachi was initially made by Maranzano either just prior to or during the famous Castellammarese war. He claimed that at the ceremony he was told that his new "goombah" was to be Joe Bonanno.

Then after Maranzano was killed, Valachi was apparently running scared so he reached out to Tommy Lucchese, who intervened and reached out to Vito Genovese. And I guess the rest is history because we all know that Valachi ended up a soldier in the Genovese family.

I know it's kind of convoluted and quite possibly not technically a change, because he was made prior to the formal Five Families being introduced, but I thought it was worth mentioning .

Yeah you're right never thought of that was it not the Reina (Lucchesse) family he was a part of?

Wasn't Nicky O part of Philly North Jersey and the Gambinos. Who was he made by?

I´m not exactly sure what you mean by "he was made prior to the Five Families being divided up". But prior to the Castellammarese war, the Five Families had already been established. The bosses were Masseria, Mineo, Reina, Schiro and Profaci. During the war, former Masseria loyalists switched sides to Maranzano´s. I guess one can argue that the New York Mafia consisted of two factions by this time (actually three because Profaci was considered neutral) but the NY Mafia was still de facto structured into five different Families.
Valachi was made into the group that supported Maranzano in late 1930 and at a time when the war was still raging. I think he was connected with the old Reina Family at the time. Although being made member of the Mafia (fully comparable to others who had been made during normal circumstances), I´m not sure that this group can be called the Maranzano Family because this group consisted of members of the Reina Family (Gagliano, Lucchese, Scillitani and others) as well as Mineo members (Mangano, Gambino, Scalise and others). They had all joined to fight Masseria but was still technically members of their old Families.
However, directly after the war, these men who had joined the "Maranzano cause" were given the choise to remain with Maranzano or go back with their original Families. Only a few stayed with Maranzano and Valachi was one them.
The Valachi switch occurred after the Maranzano killing. Gagliano and Lucchese intervened on Valachi´s behalf and saved him from being killed by Luciano and Genovese who considered Valachi as a staunch Maranzano supporter.
If memory serves me right, Valachi was given a choise to either go with Gagliano (who now led the old Reina Family) or Luciano and he chose Luciano. He was put in Genovese´s old crew, now run by Anthony Bender. This was a choise Valachi later regretted.
So from being a made member of the Maranzano forces who fought Masseria in the war, via membership in the Maranzano Family, he went to become a member of the Luciano Family.

I guess I could have worded it better, Hairy. I indeed meant that there were basically two warring factions at that point (Masseria and Maranzano). Regardless, I'm sure that I noted that Valachi's original "goombah" was Bonanno. But like I said, it's pretty convoluted and technically may not be considered a switch. I was just trying to add something to the topic.

He was most likely made by the Phillys. Correct me if I´m wrong, but Nicky O was never a Gambino member.

I understand
The New York Mafia was in great disarray at the time and the circumstances are extremely complicated. Some crime historians claim that also the Maranzano Family had split into two factions. The murder of Joseph Parrino, who was appointed boss by Masseria and most likely killed by Maranzano gunmen, seems to suggest this.

Kid Blast and Frannk Illiano and Kid Blast switched over to the ivyleague.

You are right DN, but keep in mind that Illiano and Albert Gallo wasn´t made guys when they switched to the ivyleague.

Did the mineo family not support masseria?

Originally they did. But after the Mineo murder, some Mineo members joined the Maranzano group. (Mangano, Gambino, Scalise.) Others remained loyal to Masseria. Off the top of my head the Masseria loyalists were Anastasia, Joe Biondo, Joe Traina...

Fair enough i'm quite sure i read somewhere after the Masseria murder Scalise got demoted as boss because he was a close ally to Masseria.

Actually Maranzano made Scalise boss of the old Mineo Family after the Masseria killing. After Maranzano was killed, Scalise was demoted because he had been a Maranzano ally.

Ok thanks i can see were i got mixed up. I thought Mangano was the one Maranzano madde boss after the Masseria killing. Who was boss after Mineo then?

"Ok thanks i can see were i got mixed up. I thought Mangano was the one Maranzano madde boss after the Masseria killing. Who was boss after Mineo then?"

I really don´t know. There is a possibility that Scalise was made boss by Maranzano already right after Mineo was killed, perhaps on acting basis only. But considering the Family had split into two factions, Scalise must have been practically powerless at that time.
Another possibility is that the Family simply didn´t had a boss (right after the Mineo killing) and that a power vaccum occurred. I don´t think the two sides were able to name a boss. Who would have wanted the job at that time, considering the shooting came from all kinds of angles?

Yeah good point Maranzanos faction probably just absorbed the Mineos and Scalise just became one of his closest allies.

Sorry for the constant questions lol but was Mangano not also an ally of Maranzano if so then why would Luciano (or whoever) name Mangano boss rather than just keeping Scalise in place?

No problem. Yes, Mangano was also a Maranzano ally. But Maranzano settled on Scalise to run the old Mineo Family. According to Valachi (and I think also Nicola Gentile mentioned this), Mangano´s name was put on a "death list" with Luciano´s, Genovese´s, Costello´s, Capone´s and Dutch Schultz´s by Maranzano. So by September 1931, Mangano had clearly fallen out of favor with Maranzano who gave the murder assaignment to Scalise. But Scalise balked and informed Mangano of the murder plot instead. At the same time, Lucchese (another Maranzano ally) informed Luciano of the "death list" and from then on Maranzano was history.
It´s hard to tell why Scalise was demoted after the Maranzano murder. Joe Bonanno referred to the incident (in his book) only as "Scalise´s star fell. Scalise had been too close a supporter of Maranzano. With Lucky´s rise to power, Scalise became a liability to his Family, which didn´t want to antagonize the powerful Luciano and his cohorts."

Did any Chicago made guys ever switch crews? Which would be like switching families, sort of.

speaking of old Joseph Valachi, stumbled on this today, his birthday--

http://hilobrow.com/2012/09/22/joseph-valachi

Be interesting to see some of the manuscript Valachi actually wrote and was then suppressed by the Justice Department though I don't think it's ever leaked or if anyone besides Peter Maas had a copy.

Valachi´s manuscipt (I think) is called "The Real Thing" and is available in only a few copies. In very few instances, "The Real Deal" has been used as basis for some of the stories on Valachi. But they are far between. Also there is the transcript from the Valachi Senate Hearings which I have a copy of. I mention this because I want to point out that Maas´s book is a simplified version of Valachi´s life, in the same way Pileggi and Scorsese simplified the book "Wiseguy" and the movie "GoodFellas" (which are both extremely good pieces of art, don´t get me wrong), but they were made for the masses. Simplifying avoids confusion among the readers and viewers, shutting out the complexity of a story portraying a lifetime.

In Maas´s book for example, the purge, or the night of the Sicilian Vespers, is mentioned as info coming from Valachi himself. But in reality, Valachi only spoke of three murders in connection with the Maranzano killing, and not the large amount of 50, 60 or whatever slain mustache petes all over the country. Of course, Maas had to mention the purge when he wrote his book because it helped sell it, even if there was no evidence supporting the purge at all.

Agreed on all counts, HK... The published "Valachi Papers" is even somewhat underwhelming today, though you can still see its importance and its appeal. I'm sure "The Real Thing" is a mess given Valachi's education level and literacy but that burning NEED to express himself and reveal what he knew (from his singular vantage point) would be fascinating to see in its raw state.

The story of Peter Maas' trouble with the Dept. of Justice over Valachi is very interesting itself; I imagine Joe Colombo was lurking behind some of the pressure put on LBJ who then put it on AG Katzenbach.

"Wiseguy" is a good adaptation, though I wish Scorsese had spared us the anachronistic Stones/Cream stuff when they're in the late '70s, early '80s... although that's another discussion.

'Sicilian Vespers' is a pet peeve of mine too, btw; crazy how often it's still repeated!

Was joe gallos brother albert made when he left the colombos for the genovese family

Nick licatas son went from l.a to detroit didn't he and frattiano said in his book that roselli was part of the l.a family and was there when he got made im pretty sure

I thought lips started off in detroit I know he worked in l.a but started in detroit

I may be wrong but i think i read somewhere he wasn't and unless i've got the situation completely backward Larry was the senior Gallo if you like.