The Rat Pack

Did the rat pack have anything to do with the mafia? Today I seen a movie about them, and some mobsters were talking about whacking them.

Yes, Sinatra had connections although he denied it during all his life. Coppola built the character of the singer around Sinatra's real life and he even wanted him for the role but Sinatra turned him down -who knows why ?!

Maybe Sinatra didn't want the role of Johnny Fontaine cause that might have caused him to be typecast, untruly of course, as a famous singer with organized crime connections. Wise decision on his part to have turned down the role! :-)

I read a book called "The Last Mafioso" and there was a pic that took up 2 pages of Frank Sinatra with a group of wiseguys in his dressing room. One wiseguy in the group was none other than Carlo Gambino.

Here's the pic that Luca was talking about:

Grazi! SC I forgot Paul C was in the pic as well.

Ws he the 3rd guy standing from the right?

SC : a technical Q? here : how do you import pictures without giving the URL -if you did so ???

So much for Frank claiming he didn't know or associate with wiseguys....huh? :rolleyes:

Paul,
TO answer your question more specifically, yes they did. Here is how ; Peter Lawford was married into the Kennedy family and also a member of Sinatras group. Peter intorduced Sinatra to John F. Kennedy and they hit it off from the get go. When John F. Kennedy was running for President, he used Sinatras connections with Sam Giancana to have Giancana use his Union Influences to convince the union memebers to vote John F. Kennedy. For if Kennedy did not get the Union votes, then most likely he would have lost the election. Giancana did this as a favor to Sinatra on behalf of the Kennedys. However once Kennedy won the Presidency, he eventually appointed his brother Robert Attorney General and his father and brother Robert decided that they no longer wanted any affiliations with Sinatra because he had connections to Sam Giancana! SO basically they used him. To add insult to injury, Brother Robert went after the same mobsters who a few years earlier helped put his brother in office! That is why the mob was so pissed off, and almost took it out on Sinatra. WHat always bothered me about the Kennedys is that they, especially Father Joe and brother Robert, forgot where they came from. Always pointing fingers, going after people, etc. Joseph Kennedy was a bootlegger, that's how they made all of thier money, Illegally! THen years later they had the nerve to call this one and that one criminals! Well, as they say " The Sins of the Fathers." Guess that was true for the entire Kennedy family.

Paul,
TO answer your question more specifically, yes they did. Here is how ; Peter Lawford was married into the Kennedy family and also a member of Sinatras group. Peter intorduced Sinatra to John F. Kennedy and they hit it off from the get go. When John F. Kennedy was running for President, he used Sinatras connections with Sam Giancana to have Giancana use his Union Influences to convince the union memebers to vote John F. Kennedy. For if Kennedy did not get the Union votes, then most likely he would have lost the election. Giancana did this as a favor to Sinatra on behalf of the Kennedys. However once Kennedy won the Presidency, he eventually appointed his brother Robert Attorney General and his father and brother Robert decided that they no longer wanted any affiliations with Sinatra because he had connections to Sam Giancana! SO basically they used him. To add insult to injury, Brother Robert went after the same mobsters who a few years earlier helped put his brother in office! That is why the mob was so pissed off, and almost took it out on Sinatra. WHat always bothered me about the Kennedys is that they, especially Father Joe and brother Robert, forgot where they came from. Always pointing fingers, going after people, etc. Joseph Kennedy was a bootlegger, that's how they made all of thier money, Illegally! THen years later they had the nerve to call this one and that one criminals! Well, as they say " The Sins of the Fathers." Guess that was true for the entire Kennedy family.[/b][/quote]I know it's "Un-American" to say it but the whole Kenedy family makes me sick.
The media in this country has all but canonized them and for what?
The old man, Joe Kennedy was a rum-runner and serial adulterer who gained quite a bit of his fortune by selling out before the big crash of 1929. JFK, well we ALL know that story, Ted, also an adulterer, who got away with manslaughter because of who he was and the saga continues........

Kudos Scarlett! I agree with you 100% I for one don't understand the amazement with the Kennedy family. They should have used the Kennedy's family history in the GF trilogy. Their as corrupt as any mafia family in the trilogy.

Frank was cool, wasn't he? I loved him in "From here to Eternity".

Does anyone (Turnbull?) know if the Hollywood legend about Frank Sinatra and Joe Dimaggio having busted down a Hotel room door one time is true? Supposedly
Dimaggio thought he was going to find Marilyn in that Hotel room with another man but it was just some old lady's room.

I hadn't heard that hotel room door story, Scarlett, but it's well known that DiMaggio got physical in springing Marilyn from a mental hospital after their divorce.
Morris Engelberg, Dimaggio's lawyer, wrote an articel for Vanity Fair in which he said Sinatra was prominent on DiMaggio's s**t-list. Engelberg said that DiMaggio blamed Monroe's drug and alcohol addiction, and her death from an apparent overdose, on Sinatra and the Kennedy brothers. DiMaggio thought Sinatra introduced Monroe to the Kennedys in exchange for political favors.

I understood that Sinatra was very against Godfather Part I as he felt it was a slur on the
Italian American Community.
He believed that the character of Johnny Fontane was based on him and was upset by this implication.
But after the great success of Part I, I believe he had a re-think and would have liked to be in Part II.

What can you say? - you gotta admire the man's inconsistency!!!!!

Hi Wiseguy,

I too remember hearing that Sinatra was against that film, or at least protested the Johnny Fontaine character. At the time it was released I remember everyone saying that Fontaine was suppose to be based on Sinatra.

That photo of Frank and the boys was taken at The Westchester Premier Theater. The place was notoriously mobbed up. It was owned, run and staffed by mob goons right down to the parking valets. It was a classic example of a mob "bust out" operation, sucked dry of all assets and run into bankruptcy. It was a big story, I remember the news coverage years ago. A bust out is what happened to the Bamboo Lounge in Goodfellas after Paulie became a partner but I don't think they torched the Westchester for insurance.
As for DiMaggio, I've read that Joltin Joe was also questioned by the FBI for being a little too chummy with some mafia guys.

Fanucci, where you been, dude? We've been missing your expertise around here. Between you and our other resident experts, "we don't need no stinkin' Mafia books!" Anyways, good to see you back...cool new avatar, by the way!

On the front page of The NY Post or NY Daily news sometime back was a giant front page headline (a bit after his death) that said "KING RAT" with a picture of Sinatra under it...
The journalist allegedly had proof from the FBI (under the Freedom of Information Act), that Frank had gone to the FBI later in his life to give up all the info he had on organized crime. They flatly rejected his offer. Anyone from NY/NJ areas see that article?

Youse guys amaze me!!! Is there anything any of you DON'T know?

Others on these boards have pointed out another parallel between Sinatra and Johnny Fontaine. Seems the bandleader story really happened. The bandleader in Sinatra's case was Tommy Dorsey, and the Luca Brazi character was Willie Moretti, a much-feared NJ Mafioso who was an ally of many Dons.

Following on from everyone's comments on Sinatra; I remember reading somewhere that when casting was being done for Part III that Frank was very interested in the role of Don Altobello.

Setting aside the issue of Sinatra's earlier comments about Part 1, does anyone know how serious Frank was taken in his interest in
Part III?

Of course, the part went to Eli Wallach, but how do you think Frank would have done?

I think anyone would have been more convincing than Eli Wallach.

OK I knew the moffia had something to do with the Kennedy family...uh, issues. My family thinks I'm crazy...but they think The Godfather is a bad movie.

I really think they had Marilyn Monroe whacked too!
But why,...does anyone Know?

I remember reading that Brando was seeing her and he said she was doing well and he doesn't think she would have killed herself.

I might be crazy but I kinda feel like all "unexplainable" stuff is moffia related.
Except for like alien trailer park stories perhaps!
...but you never know!

Turnball,

What a cynical response about Eli Wallach!!

But, you have a point - he moved kind of funny, camped it up and exaggerated all his gestures.

There is that scene of him leaving the Commission Meeting just before the helicopter attack. He flusters out after Joey Zasa.

I thought he looked like an arthritic Charlie Chaplin who'd taken some super strength speed!

On the other hand he was able to convincingly steer the course between senile old family friend and jealous plotter.

But back to Frank, how'd you all think he'd do
as Altobello?

Sinatra was an accomplished actor who played tough guy roles exceptionally well, on both sides of the law (as Tony Rome, a detective, and in "Suddenly," a taut, first-rate little presidential assassination thriller also starring Sterling Hayden). He would have made a fine Don Altobello in his prime. But I think he was into his final decline when GFIII was being filmed.

Turnbull, I have to say I can't see Frank in that role, just like I couldn't See George Hamilton in Toms role either. That is what made the Godfather movies so good no type casting, no faces that you knew from other movies and had a pre-lock on that person....

Trust me, Scarlett - it's NOT un-American. They make me sick, too. They're a bunch of hypocrites, and they ARE canonized for no good reason. They used Sinatra to help them win in 1960, then turned their back on him because of his friendship w/ Sammy. What drives me nuts is when they're referred to as 'America's Royalty', or when JFK Jr. died, he was mourned as 'America's Prince'!!! Little mention that his death was due to his recklessnes and inexperience as a pilot, and that he took his wife & sister-in-law with him. It all started when JFK was assasinated; that made this previously not-very-popular President (who might very well have lost re-election in '64) a martyr. That started the wheels turning that put the whole family a step above the rest of us.

Apple

They get away with it beccause people let them, they put them on a stand and treat them like they are special....I was so sick about hearing aboyt How wonderful John Jr. was.... get real he had a golden spoon in his mouth since he was born...and JFK was just like anyone else...but the myth grew and grew and grew...Uncle Teddy is a wind bag.

I think Caroline seems to be the only normal one, and she stays out of the public view!

How many rat packers were they and who were they? I know about Frank Sinatra and I've seen that photo quite a few times. Was Sinatra Sicillian? Thanks

FH

The Rat Pack members were Frank, Dean Martin, Peter Lawford, Sammy Davis Jr., Shirley McLaine, Joey Bishop. Thats all I can think of right now.

Coppola wanted Sinatra to play Johnny Fontaine? I thought Sinatra would have been way too old by then. He was in his late 30s when he appeared in From Here to Eternity. By the time of GF1, he was in his late 50s, the same age as Vito, making the idea that Vito was his Godfather completely ridiculous.

I just found this. I noticed the section on the 'Godfather' rumours and thought it might be interesting.
http://members.aol.com/jillywest/bio.htm

FH

anyone knew the title of the song Ray Liotta is singing(while Smoking) in the last part of the movie?

GoodFella

okay. i got the title its "One for my Baby."

GoodFella

Originally posted by Luca Brasi:
I read a book called "The Last Mafioso" and there was a pic that took up 2 pages of Frank Sinatra with a group of wiseguys in his dressing room. One wiseguy in the group was none other than Carlo Gambino.

In 1981 Sinatra faced questioning from the Gaming Board controlling Nevada gambling. Sinatra was asked questions about the notorious 1976 Westchester photo. This is his account of the photo
Sinatra: -
"I was asked by one of the members of the theatre - who he was doesn't come to me, I don't think that it is that important - he told me that Mr. Gambino had arrived with his grand-daughter,
whose name happened to be Sinatra, a doctor in New York, not related at all and they'd like to take a picture. I said Fine. They came in and took a picture of the little girl and before I realized what happened, there were approximately eight or nine men standing around me and several other snapshots were made. That is the whole incident that took place"

Of course those guys included Gambino, underboss Paul Castellano and Los Angeles boss (later turned witness) Jimmy 'the Weasel' Fratianno.

This is Fratianno's view.

"Well, that's a lot of baloney. He wanted to take a picture with Gambino and he offered Gambino to come in the back, he wanted to meet him. He knows me, he knows Gambino, Tommy Marson, Paul Castellano. He knows just as much about this as I do"

Draw your own conclusions folks.

Way back when, you couldn't be in showbiz without at least brushing shoulders with the mob. Frank was a skinny dago kid from Hoboken to top it off... I don't doubt that Frank was a little "involved", probably more than a little. It makes no difference to me. He was a genuine talent. Oh yeah, The Kennedys suck ass. Just had to put mine in on that.

I've just found a new comment on Sinatra and the mafia HERE.

Can anyone name who the other guys are in the Sinatra/Gambino Photo? I know there's a couple of you guys on here who are as close to experts as they come.

I'm no Turnball - the technical term for expert.
but I believe that the photo includes:-
From left: Paul Castellano, Gregory de Palma, Sinatra, Tommy Marson, Carlo Gambino, James Fratianno, Salvatore Spatola. (all standing)
Joseph Gambino and Richard Fusco - (sitting)

sinatra and the rest o' the rat pack is the shitz! :p :p

im reading a book about frank Sinatra, " His Way, the unauthorized biography of Frank Sinatra." it is written in the book that when frankie was starting to hit it big, his press agent George Evans was paying some girls to scream and hug Frankie during his concert. gave tickets to some girls with no classes so that the concert will be jampacked. but George Evans' move paid off, Frankie was all over the papers and news, this move help him to stardom . . .

GoodFella

why exactly is the Kennedy family so respected? I dont know much about American History or politics but I know JFK wasnt exactly president for very long and it seems his assasination is the only reason he receives so much praise.

A really good and thoughtful question, goddaughter. Short answer: money talks! Longer answer: JFK's father was a rum-runner during US Prohibition, stock market manipulator and Hollywood financier who used his money to buy respectability--in his case, appointment as Ambassador to the Court of St. James. He also bought JFK's nomination as Democratic Presidential candidate in 1960. The Presidential election was the closest in modern US history, and Kennedy Sr. used his money and influence to throw the election into JFK's corner. JFK, notwithstanding his considerable charm, charisma and occasional leadership qualities, didn't accomplish much in his less than 3 years as President. Much of his current fame and adulation stems from the mythology that inheres in his tragic death. This isn't unusual in politics. Abraham Lincoln, considered by many (including me) to be the greatest US President, might not have been regarded as so great had he lived to deal with the problems of Reconstruction after the US Civil War. Those problems fell to his successor, Andrew Johnson, who was impeached.*
--
* - "Impeached" under the US Constitution means indicted and tried for "high crimes and misdemeanors. Johnson was tried by the US Senate, but not convicted. (Sorry to be pedantic, but since you're not from the US, I thought I'd try to explain this nuance.)

thanks-I knew what impeached means but only since Bill Clinton and his little "misdemeanours"!!!

I'm only surmising here but, I've often wondered if, had Joe Kennedy not had the stroke which left him almost helpless if he would have stopped his sons relentless campaign against organised crime.?
As has been said he had quite strong ties to the mob and I could be wrong, someone will tell me, but I thought the campaign began seriously after Joes stroke/heart attack?
Maybe by trying to wipe out the mob guys the Kennedy boys were trying to clean up their own history...the other end of the scale where Mike in GF3 tried to clean up his history for Mary and Anthony..in GF3 Mike says something like 'the higher you go the worse it gets' that seems true

FH

That's a great question, FH! I guess the answer depends on how much credence you give to the various stories about how the Kennedys became involved with Sam Giancana of the Chicago Outfit. One story has Joe Kennedy himself approaching Giancana for help, another has JFK making the move, another has Bobby doing it, still others have Sinatra and various other go-betweens doing the dirty-work. For what it's worth: I doubt that any Kennedy had any direct contact with Giancana. And the Kennedys were too rich, too powerful and too influential to be beholden to anyone for long. Joe, especially, had a record of "loving and leaving," or at least distancing himself from, various backers. Bobby was monomaniacally dedicated to protecting his brother. JFK, meanwhile, had a great knack for letting others help him to lead a charmed life, and was too smart to let "loyalty" or "debts" put him in a precarious situation. Bottom line: Bobby declared war on the Mob in part to make sure that the Kennedy name was distanced from their Mob backers. I doubt that Old Man Kennedy would have tried to interfere with that effort--he would have supported it.

in addition to this, the Kennedy's also became cold on their friendship with Frank Sinatra because Frankie is identified with the Mafia'S . . .

GoodFella

Sammy Davies died with nothing left on his pocket, what his wife got from him was millions in debt. he lost all his money in gambling and other vices. his wife worked so hard to pay the debts. she went to places that people dont know her. she even can't afford to buy slippers so have to walked barefoot. her first job was a waitress, but after a lot of hardwork it paid off. she paid all the debts that Sammy left and became a millionaire again on her own . . .

GoodFella

It's a real privelage to serve in the b.b. family w/ youse guys.

well , i just watched this movie lastnight, well worth the time,

the first Rat Pack was formed by Humphrey Bogart and his wife lauren Baccall. they call it Holmby Hills Rat Pack which was dedicated to drinking, laughing, staying up late and not caring about public opinion. in short, Good Time. the members are Frank Sinatra, Judy Garland and husband Sid Luft, agent Irving Lazar and nathaniel Benchley. when Bogie died in 1957, Frankie formed his own.

The New Rat Pack have their own vocabulary like "God" was called the Big G, "broads" was women, "Bird" was the male organ. everytime Frankie sees one of the Rat Pack he always asks "How's your Bird?"

GoodFella

Hi,
I saw the movie with Ray Liotta. Frank Sinatra originally went to Puzo for the role of Vito and was turned down. Then he read the part about Johhny Fontaine in the book and called Mario Puzo every name in the book.

Ciao Paul. from what i've read its Frank Jr. who is very much interested in the role of Johnny Fontane but Frank Sr never allowed his son to do the role coz he believed it was very much based on him. like the role in "from here to eternity" with Willie Moretti of New Jersey mob helped him to get the role.

GoodFella

Hi there,
I've got a couple of answers to some of the questions i've come across regarding Frank Sinatra with connection to the Mafia!! Family Honour.
Not so long ago i was watching a documentary on Frank Sinatra on T.V over here in the U.K, which if i remember stated that Franks father was an amateur boxer in New Jersey,both Franks parents had connections with the Mafia through Sinatra Snr's boxing circles.Mrs Sinatra noticed her son had a talent for singing and asked if a few strings could be pulled so Frank could make it big time.The rest is history,apart from the Mafia never let Frank forget where it all came from!!!
There was also ,alledgedly,actual tape recordings of a conversation between 2 Mafia leaders who were p**sed over something,which my memory won't recall,something Frank,Dean Martin and Sammy Davies Jr had done/said, and these 2 guys were talking of bumping them off,but they came up with ,they're worth more alive than dead.So they had them play VIP in Vegas in the casino's so the audience would pay top dollar to see these guys sing and then go into a rigged room to have their money (which was substancial amounts) syphened away from them,tax free of course,which turned out to be an unavoidable contract for the boys.
Deano...

Humphrey Bogart was the original founder of the Rat Pack,along with his wife Lauren Bacall,David Niven and a host of other leading Hollywood actors who wanted more say/control over their careers and financial packages,there'd be discreet private parties at 'Bogeys' house and eventually they saw Frank Sinatra as a rebellious figure who'd be an ideal leader or chairman acting/speaking on their behalf.Over the years the popularity grew over the Rat Pack, but Frank,Dean Martin,Sammy Davies Jr, Peter Lawford and Joey Bishop became headlined with the name of the 'RAT PACK' by the media, and still do today!!!
Deano......

Welcome to the boards, Dean!
I'm glad you made that insightful posting. It's worth remembering that Bogey and Bacall, not Sinatra, founded the original "Holmby Hills Rat Pack" (named after the section of LA where they lived). Sinatra was a relative latecomer to the pinnacle of Hollywood because his career had been in decline until "From Here to Eternity."

The most important thing to remember is that Frank,Dean and Sammy were excellent entertainers, and their music still is.Here in the U.K their C.D's still sell very well.Every time i walk into my local music store i come across a new, or should i say, a re-release of a LIVE performance at the Sands in Vegas, or some compilation or another and i can't resist but to but it/them.
Deano......

That last message should have ended 'buy it/them.
Deano...

this is one for the books. Bogie was very jealous of Frank. when Lauren celebrated her 32nd birthday Bogie did'nt attend the party after knowing that Frank will attend. instead, he spent the day with his son.

everyone in the Rat Pack knew Lauren and franks relationship. they just hope Bogie would'nt find out coz they feel this is more killing than cancer.

when Bogie died in 1957, the Rat Pack was in full force except for frankie. he did'nt attend the funeral. "Guilt Feelings" maybe . . .

GoodFella