An idea for peaceful discussion

Let me stop here and say that I won't get mad if this thread gets shut down by JG or SC. I'm not starting another one of those kind of threads. However, at the same time I realize I post at the discretion of the moderators.

Here's the idea. Its very obvious that people do not have a basic understanding of each other’s cultures. And that's not only on the boards, but everywhere in the world.

I propose a discussion on how much does religion impact world decisions.

Basically, why do westerners have such a natural dislike for Islam? Is it based in religious ideological difference, or something else?

What is it? Let's face it, people in the west had misgivings about Islam before 9/11.

But what causes those misgivings and what is the view from the Islamic perspective.

I would appreciate it if people keep their cool on this and not fall back on rhetoric or highly biased opinions because let's face it, we're all guilty of posting crap on the boards. So let's try and avoid it.

Good luck cause as I've learned over the years, nothing causes more heat & controversy that religion & politics. And no matter how civil people try to be.

It almost always doesn't end up that way.


Me personally I have no use for religion at all.

How can the world possibly have peaceful discussions when we can't even get along on these boards? Seems like someone always has to have the last word, and then it starts an arguement with someone else. Granted, people are allowed to have their own opinions, but sometimes it gets ridiculous. That's why I sometimes don't post anything for a long time. Cripe, you can't even go on the games boards sometimes without there being a controversy on there.

While I'll agree with the last two posts, I do hope that people can act civilized.

You are not the first to request 'civility' on this board and you won't be the last.

While you probably have the best of intentions, this and most every other message board has moderators for a reason. If you can't handle criticism or debate, then don't bother posting.

For instance...what makes you assert that: "...westerners have such a natural dislike for Islam? ..." That right there is sufficient grounds for argument.

Best,
AppleOnYa

Another Generalization! Another Generalization!

Why is it okay for you to throw out generalizations like chickenfeed, but you condemn perceived generalizations from those that disagree with you?

Religion and Politics don't mix like money and blood, and two dicks with no chicks. That is why our fore fathers tried to seperate church and state. Too bad people don't follow this great idea.

You people are already starting. What was posted in other threads I would like to keep out of this one.

There have been five members reply to you in this thread. All have "warned" of this happening.

Good luck (but don't hold your breath).

Agree, but like Mad Johnny already tried to tell: there's a difference between debating and Everything can be criticized. The idea of having a peaceful discussion is a good one. In the same post however, you also make political statements like "Why do Western people all have a distrust of Islam". That is debatable, and -this time I find myself agreeing with Apple and Klydon- a generalization. Maybe the majority of Western people distrusts Islam, but not all. I, for one, do not.

And after it too. People have always had misgivings about other cultures, one of the reasons of war and racism.

Good intentions you have by the way, Mad Johnny.

Pope smokes peace pipe with Muslims

Castelgandolfo, Italy, Sept. 25 (Reuters): Pope Benedict today assured Muslims that he respected them and was committed to dialogue, in an unprecedented encounter to defuse anger at his use of quotes saying their faith was spread by the sword.

Reaction modest to pope's meeting with Muslims


September 25, 2006 1:44 PM

The Associated Press

CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy Iraq's Muslim envoy says it's time to leave behind the pope's remarks about Islam, and "build bridges."


===========================================================


Definitely a step in the right directions by BOTH religions towards respecting one another's beliefs. This meeting was an idea, by the Pope, for a peacful discussion.


Don Cardi

Oh bull shit! What are you, a fockin' idiot? You don't know WTF you're talking about! You really believe that.......... oh wait, sorry.... wrong thread! :p

Its nice that there was a show of respect by both sides.

However, where do people go from here? I mean, what can people do to continue to close the gap?

There's a major hang up in Islam about the whole Holy Trinity thing. Is it differences like this that cause hatred, or does it expand beyond that?

Oh bull shit! What are you, a fockin' idiot? You don't know WTF you're talking about! You really believe that.......... oh wait, sorry.... wrong thread! :p [/b][/quote]The wrong thread? Oh shit! I must have posted on the wrong internet board!!!!


Don Cardi

See it's all that Crown Royal you've been drinking

Don't you get it?

In the very same thread where you have asked for a 'peaceful discussion' about religion impacting world decisions, you have declared that 1) Westerners have a 'natural dislike' for Islam, and 2) Islam has a 'hangup' about the 'Holy Trinity Thing'.

You've asked what the view is from the Islamic perspective...yet you appear to have given it, according to your own POV, anyway.

You ask people to "...not fall back on rhetoric or highly biased opinions..." and yet that is EXACTLY what you are doing to initiate your idea of discussion.

You claim "...we're all guilty of posting crap on the boards..." and yet - oh, well you're right about that one.

But try & avoid it? After the blatant generalizations you've just made about BOTH cultures?

Valiant as your efforts are....you need to work on your style just a teensy bit. Otherwise, save it for the lieberry.

Like SC says...GOOD LUCK!!



In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

Amen.

Apple

I want both perspectives. And a majority of westerners do have some tense feelings about Islam. And Islam does take issue with the Trinity.

And your post is not promoting the discussion. Rather, you have seen fit to pick the idea apart instead of saying anything useful for the discussion.

I will not fall victim to your trap.

Someone looking for me?

I don't know that "major hangup" is the right term to use. Perhaps a better term would be "major misunderstanding."


According to most religious scholars, Muhammad thought that Christians worshiped three gods: the Father, the Mother (Mary), and the Son (Jesus), (Sura 5:73-75,116).
But in reality, Christians believe in only one God who is in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They do not believe that Mary is a part of the Trinity.

And this is where the misunderstanding probably comes into play. Many Christians probably do NOT realize that the Muslims have been taught this way about the Holy Trinity. And many Muslims probably do not realize that what they've been taught is actually NOT what the Christian people believe.

This is why I feel that it is extremely important for the legitimate leaders of their respective religions ( not the extremists who teach hate and violence, but the true followers) to sit down with each other and educate each other on what each religion really teaches and represents.

Much of the world has been misguided because many who are followers of one religion do not really understand the true teachings of another religion. And the reason that many in the world have been misguided is because the fanatical extremists, be they Muslim, Christian, Jewish or whatever, have misrepresented and painted a false picture of those religions.

The leaders from all of these religions MUST speak out and make others realize that these fanatics do not represent the teachings of the religions that they claim to represent and that these fanatical extremists are NOT a part of the true religion itslef.


Don Cardi

Yeah, what DC said. Thank you.

Ah, DC, if wishing only made it so!! I agree that education is key to tolerance. Only by learning, REALLY learning, about one another can we truly understand someone whose beliefs may be different than ours. Education washes away stereotypes and misconceptions.

Most people don't even understand their own religion. :rolleyes:

Is it possible that this anxiety between the Western world and the Muslim world is more of a cultural problem instead of theological misgivings?

I concur. I disagree firmly that most westerners dislike Islam. I think many westerners don't pay enough attention to their own religion, so they certainly have no interest in the theological teachings of Islam. The tensions result from our perceptions. Ours in the west are shaped, in part, by the events in the Middle East, the string of terrorist attacks against us here and abroad, the taking of hostages, etc. and the responses among Muslim nations.

I can't speak for the Muslim people around the world, most of whom are good people. However, I doubt that even the extremists dislike Catholics because of the Holy Trinity. Just as the west's tensions do not result from problems with the religious beliefs of Islam. Both religions (and many others) profess the tenet, in some form, of "Do unto others as you will have done unto you."

Fanatic voices from the West and Middle East may try to frame the conflict in religious terms to inflame passions. But the gap between us on theological feelings is smaller than they would like us to believe.

Is it possible that this anxiety between the Western world and the Muslim world is more of a cultural problem instead of theological misgivings? [/b][/quote]I believe that it is more of a cultural problem instead of theological problem. And what Klydon1 said is true.

However, I do believe that even though the anxiety between the Western world and the Muslim world is more of a cultural problem, at the same time the extremists have painted a false picture to the western world of what the Muslim religion really teaches and believes. They've also managed to deceive many good Muslim people into believing that the western world's beliefs are a threat to the Islamic religion itslef. And by the same token the extremist Christians and Jews have also deceived many from the western world into believing that the Islamic religion is a threat to the Hebrew and the Christian religions.

By the fanatical extremists misrepresenting their own religion and painting a false picture of all other religions, they've managed to add more misunterstanding, confusion and strife in regards to theological teachings from these religions. And for this reason I believe that one of the first steps in closing this huge gap between the two cultures is for religious leaders from all sides to step up, have some dialogue, and educate each other so that they can educate their own flocks as to what these religions really and truly belive in and represent.

I feel that if this is done between these religious leaders, and passed on to the people of these religions, the theoligical anxieties that do exist will become less and less and as all begin to understand and respect what the other religions truly stand for and represent, you will begin to see the huge cultrual gap between the western world and the muslim world begin to shrink.

Let's face it, most of what has caused such anxiety and strife on both cultures has been the misrepresentation and the false teachings of those extremists who claim to represent certain religions.

As for the trinity issue, no, it is not a major factor in the differences between both cultures. I was only replying to what was brought up about it and was using it as an example of as why one culture does not understand what the other culture is taught and believes in.

Respect and understanding for one anothers culture must begin somewhere, and being that the religious beliefs and teachings of these cultures seems to be the major topic of talks whenever something occurs between these cultures, it is important to create a foundation that will support the efforts of building relationships and understanding between these cultures. And the laying of that foundation, in my opinion, should begin with understanding the religious beliefs and teachings of these religions.


Don Cardi

Well said. I agree that the religious leaders are and will be instrumental in bridging the gap.

I believe that this is done beautifully in New York. I recall the installation of Cardinal O'Connor (who had been the bishop in my original hometown of Scranton) in the mid-1980's. Religious leaders among the Muslim, Jewish, Greek Orthodox and Protestant communities gathered at St. Patrick's to welcome him. It is a great atmosphere for interfaith relations and respect. Our similarities take precedence over our differences.

I am under the impression that what the extremist teach is that the West is bad because we only are helping them for our own finacial gain. They preach that we extort the Middle East to profit ourselves and do not really care about the well being of the people. I know our leaders say the right things and from my perspective do the right things but extremist teach that these are empty promises and feelings.

In my opinion it is really out of jealousy that the extremist try to destroy the west.

I think Americans have a bad taste for Islam because we blame a lot political behavior on the religion. However, to what extent the behavior is inspired by the religion? or to what extent it is purely economic/political actions by religious people? or is simply a means of using religious rhetoric to justify a need to conquer neighbors and committ atrocities against them? That's the debate.

Americans feel the way that they do because the nutcases who say that they are doing the work of allah but are really not are the ones guilty of using religious rhetoric to justify the need to conquer neighbors and commit atrocities. they are the ones who have brought on this bad taste.


DS

You're right, it wasn't radical Islamic fundamentalists who attacked on 9/11! We just decided to shuffle the blame in their direction because we've gotten tired of bastardizing Catholics.

Err... :rolleyes:

Multiple ideas:

I don't see how culture and religion can be separated in such a way so that one is more at fault than the other.

Religion is part of every culture and to say that culture is wholly to blame is missing the mark.

I'm not saying its a bad religion. I'm saying that religion plays the decisive role in the animosity that exists between Muslims and the west. Religion is heavily integrated into the societies of the Islamic world, no matter if they are Arabs, Turks, Persians, Asians, Phoenicians, Indonesian or Pilipino.

And Islam is not 100% the cause of this animosity. The Christian world has done its fair share of hate crimes against humanity in the name of religion. And to turn around and act like Christianity is some how better then Islam because Christians aren't on western news killing people is absurd.

The intense Christian feeling in America is not on a stable footing; its become political. The difference here is in the east, politics became part of Islam, not the other way around like in the west.

Did I miss something in this thread? I don't see where anyone here has said that Christianity is bettter than Islam!

If anything, what I did see, and tried to say myself, is that all religions have their extremists who claim that they represent the beliefs of a certain faith.

I don't think that anyone here has claimed that one religion is better than the other. Unless I missed something.


Don Cardi

DC, don't be so touchy man.

I was introducing more material into the thread.

You mean Bush and Dick?

You introduced false material into the thread.

Now let's keep this a factual, and as you said, "peaceful" discussion.


Don Cardi

I wasn't say saying people on the boards. Chill. People do act that way in America and I was just saying.

Highly Based Generalized Opinions:

Keeping your cool? :

So much for taking your own advice :p


Don Cardi

Well, you know there are always those who can dish it out but can't take it!!

Apple

Quote:

people in the west had misgivings about Islam before 9/11.

Quote:

to turn around and act like Christianity is some how better then Islam because Christians aren't on western news killing people is absurd.

Quote:

People do act that way in America

[/quote]The first one should have 'many' or 'some' or 'a part of' before Westerners.
Second the same, and the third/fourth also.

Actually Enzo, those are statements made by Mad Johnny, not me.


Don Cardi

I know. And you commented on them, saying he was being hypocritical.
So I responded to say his comments aren't exactly untrue, only incomplete.
Maybe it's more of a semantic discussion, but you get the idea.

Ok, I understand what you were trying to point out. I guess that in this case, unlike mine over in another topic where you also partook in the discussion, he is not generalizing, but I was. :rolleyes:


Don Cardi

He generalizes, just like you, just like I probably did, just like everyone.

What matters is, if it is done intentionally.

Agreed.


Don Cardi

One of the real problems with religion is that each of them believes it is the "true faith." IMHO each of them has good and bad aspects to them, and what has to happen is that each faith should have the right to believe what it wants, but not have the right to use warfare as a means to prosetelyze.

Having just returned from Spain, where they had an Inquisition by the Catholics, preceded by an occupation by Muslims, I can tell you that the country bears scars of religious warfare which have be opened wide by their tragedy of 3/11. Many people there simply hate muslims... period, and I suspect the many Morrocans who live in the slums that surround the big cities feel the same way about Christians.

It is not an easy discussion, and it is one worth pursuing.

To work through it we all need to use the Michael Corleone concept of always put yourself in the other guy's shoes so you can know what he is thinking. Thats how the dialogue starts.

So I propose this. I propose that people like DC and SC make the best possible case for what radical islamists are doing, and then work backwards from there to figure out how they can (and must) be stopped.

Clearly the use of more violence against them (i.e. Iraq) has failed, so something new and different must be tried.

Don Cardi

...in 800 words or less. :p

Apparently, DC and SC have been nominated as chief mouthpieces for radical islam!

...in 800 words or less.

Apparently, DC and SC have been nominated as chief mouthpieces for radical islam! [/b][/quote]Die Yankee Imperialist. (only 797 words to go :rolleyes: )

I don't mind playing devil's advocate, but this is a tall order. I can only suggest that these radicals believe in what they're doing as being right. When one (group or individual) is set on achieving a goal the "how its achieved" all too often becomes secondary. Its quite obvious they hate our civilization and don't care how they get what they want.

Some may make the same argument for our role in this.

So DonT wants us to play devils advocate, huh?

Well I think that what I posted earlier about a starting point and the building of a foundation through communication between and through sincere religious leaders is the way to begin.


It is extremely important for the legitimate leaders of their respective religions ( not the extremists who teach hate and violence, but the true followers) to sit down with each other and educate each other on what each religion really teaches and represents.

The fanatical extremists, be they Muslim, Christian, Jewish or whatever, have misrepresented and painted a false picture of those religions. And this is why some people of these religions generalize and dislike those from another. Many people ingest the misrepresented teachings and interpretations of those religions because of what is fed to them through rhetoric and misrepresentation. And I feel that the reason that many from all sides dislike and even hate other religions and cultures is because those same people do NOT have an understanding of the true religions that have been misrepresented by the radicals who have claimed to represent these religions. Their false claims have misguided those who are uneducated about what those religions really teach and represent. The radicals are really the ones who have caused such hatred and dislike between those from their respective religions and cultures.

And until many people are educated and can come to the realization that what these radicals preach and teach is NOT really what the true religion is all about, the hatred will continue to spread like a cancer.

Our biggest challenge right now is the strife between the Muslim world and the western world. And I've said it before and I'll say it again ; UNTIL the true leaders of Islam come out and publically denounce the acts of the terrorists and radical Islamists, many of those who are uneducated about these things will continue to generalize and view ALL of Islam as being a radical culture and religion.

And the same can be said for the many other cultures and religions involved.

Communication from and between religous and cultural leaders is the foundation needed to build upon in bringing Islam and the Western world closer to living together in peace.


Radical Islam has intentionally caused hatred and misunderstanding between the Islamic world and the Western world. And one of the ways to defeat them is for the real leaders, representatives and members of both religions and cultures to band together and stand side by side in denouncing what radical Islam has and is trying to do to our world.

Don Cardi

I think this topic has turned out (this far) to be reasonably peaceful. Especially in the light of what has existed over time.

Also, all submissions should be typed, double-spaced, and stapled; the assignment is due by 12:00 PM next Friday.

Good luck.

You forgot in triplicate