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Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam

Posted By: Tony Love

Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/09/06 03:49 AM

Senate Report Contradicts Administration Intelligence Claims
By Greg Miller
LA Times Staff Writer

5:53 PM PDT, September 8, 2006

Washington — The Senate Intelligence Committee on Friday said it had found no evidence that Saddam Hussein had ties to al-Qaida or provided safe harbor to one of its most notorious operatives, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- conclusions contradicting claims by the Bush administration before it invaded Iraq.

In a long-awaited report, the committee determined that the former Iraqi dictator was wary of al-Qaida, repeatedly rebuffed requests from its leader, Osama bin Laden, for assistance and sought to capture al-Zarqawi when the deadly terrorist turned up in Baghdad.

The findings are the latest in a series of high-profile studies to refute some of the Bush administration's key arguments for invading Iraq, mainly that the Saddam regime possessed stockpiles of banned weapons and had cultivated ties to terrorist networks. Presenting these since-discredited allegations as fact, President Bush and other high-ranking officials argued that Saddam's government posed an intolerable risk in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks.

The 356-page report is certain to fuel election-season debate over the administration's foreign policy as Bush is seeking to shore up support for the war in Iraq through a series of speeches that cast the conflict as central to winning the larger war on terror.

White House spokesman Tony Snow on Friday described the report as "nothing new."

"It's, again, kind of re-litigating things that happened three years ago," Snow said. "In 2002 and 2003, members of both parties got a good look at the intelligence we had, and they came to the very same conclusions about what was going on."

In one of its main conclusions, the report said that "postwar findings indicate that Saddam Hussein was distrustful of al-Qaida and viewed Islamic extremists as a threat to his regime, refusing all requests from al-Qaida to provide material or operational support."

The report's disclosures include a classified assessment by the CIA last year that Saddam's regime "did not have a relationship, harbor, or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi and his associates."

The committee said U.S. intelligence agencies "accurately characterized" bin Laden's intermittent interest in pursuing assistance from Iraq but were largely wrong about Saddam's attitudes. The dictator, according to the report, was so wary of the terrorist network that he "issued a general order that Iraq should not deal with al-Qaida."

Democrats seized on the findings to accuse the Bush administration of distorting the threat Iraq posed.

In a speech on the Senate floor, Sen. John D. "Jay" Rockefeller IV of West Virginia, the ranking Democrat on the chamber's intelligence committee, accused the White House of pursuing "a deceptive strategy of using intelligence reporting that the intelligence community had already warned was uncorroborated, unreliable, and in critical instances, fabricated."

The report is based largely on documents recovered from Iraqi facilities in the aftermath of the U.S. invasion in March 2003, as well as interrogations of Saddam and other Iraqi officials captured by coalition forces.

As a result, it represents the most thorough comparison to date of prewar suspicions with evidence subsequently collected. Much of the information was unavailable to U.S. intelligence agencies and policymakers before the war.

The report's publication was marked by political wrangling within the Republican-controlled intelligence committee, with two GOP members -- Sens. Olympia Snowe of Maine and Chuck Hagel of Nebraska -- breaking ranks to vote for conclusions drafted by Democrats.

In a statement, Snowe cited the "obligation of our government to learn from these horrific mistakes" and complained that the intelligence committee "once noted for its bipartisanship, has become marred by partisan feuding." Hagel was not available for comment.

Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan., the committee chairman, objected to findings he said overstated the influence of the Iraqi National Congress -- an Iraqi exile group led by Ahmad Chalabi that had close ties to the Bush administration and has been accused of funneling prewar misinformation about Baghdad's weapons programs to U.S. intelligence agencies and news organizations.

The committee devoted 207 pages to an analysis of the INC, concluding that it "attempted to influence U.S. policy on Iraq by providing false information through defectors."

Another section focused on the erroneous prewar estimates by the CIA and other agencies that Baghdad had stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions and was pursuing the development of nuclear arms.

But the report's most significant new information focuses on Baghdad's alleged ties to al-Qaida.

Vice President Dick Cheney and other senior administration officials persistently have touted intelligence reports suggesting a relationship between Saddam and bin Laden. But the Senate report contradicts many of those assertions.

The report affirms, for instance, that al-Zarqawi was in Baghdad for about seven months in 2002. But Hussein was initially unaware of his presence in the country and later ordered his intelligence services to capture al-Zarqawi, according to the report.

The attempt was unsuccessful, and al-Zarqawi escaped to Iran. He also hid in areas of northern Iraq beyond Saddam's reach. After Saddam was overthrown, al-Zarqawi led the deadly insurgency against U.S. forces before he was killed by a U.S. air strike in June.

The committee's report also dismisses a claim repeatedly cited by Cheney that an Iraqi intelligence agent met with Sept. 11 hijacker Mohammed Atta in Prague, Czech Republic, in April 2001. That claim has bolstered public perceptions that Iraq was linked to the Sept. 11 attacks.

But postwar evidence indicates no such meeting occurred, the committee found, citing Atta's travel and cell-phone records obtained by the FBI, as well as information from the Iraqi agent alleged to have attended the meeting.

The report casts similar doubt on assertions that Iraq had provided chemical and biological weapons training to al-Qaida operatives or allowed terrorist organizations to practice for attacks on aircraft at a facility south of Baghdad known as Salman Pak.

Despite reports of repeated contacts between Iraq and al-Qaida, the committee said U.S. intelligence has been able to assemble evidence of only one meeting -- a 1995 encounter in Sudan between bin Laden and Iraqi intelligence officer Faruz Hijazi.

In postwar debriefings, Hijazi said Saddam had instructed him to "only listen" and not negotiate or offer support to bin Laden. He said bin Laden "requested an office in Iraq, military training for his followers, Chinese sea mines and the broadcast of speeches from an anti-Saudi cleric."

Hijazi said he "immediately rejected" virtually all of the requests, offering only to consider the one on broadcasting anti-Saudi speeches.

Overall, the document portrays Hussein and his underlings as alarmed by U.S. accusations linking him to al-Qaida. At one point, the report said, Saddam was warned by the director of Iraq's intelligence service "that U.S. intelligence was attempting to fabricate connections between the (Iraqi intelligence services) and al-Qaida" to justify an invasion.

The Senate report also offers new theories as to why Saddam's regime was unable to convince U.N. inspectors before the U.S. invasion that it no longer had stocks of illegal weapons.

A recent CIA analysis concluded that Saddam was stunned by the aggressiveness of weapons inspections after the 1991 Persian Gulf War, and he ordered the covert destruction of undeclared weapons and documents. In the process, Saddam destroyed the records U.N. inspectors sought a decade later when putting pressure on Iraq to account for its illicit weapons.

"The result was that Iraq was unable to provide proof when it tried at a later time to establish compliance," the report said, citing the CIA study.

---

Further proof of our priorities.
Posted By: J Geoff

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/09/06 06:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
Further proof of our priorities.
And I agree with your sarcasm...

Quote:
The findings are the latest in a series of high-profile studies to refute some of the Bush administration's key arguments for invading Iraq


Apparently this old/tired "news" is new again, and some have wasted the last few years of their lives trying to "prove" this -- but to what end? NO SHIT! :rolleyes:

Why can't these "brainiacs" come up with a solution, rather than some cause/blame, to the problem??

Typical.

While the Dems are looking to be sure there are no WMD's to be found in Iraq just to embarrass our president, at least AMERICA -- under Bush's leadership -- is 1) liberating a country from its dictatorship, and, 2) doing all it can to curtail further terrorist strikes against us.

On which side do you feal safer?

As a RECENTLY FORMER Republican, I feel safer in Bush's hands. I'm no whiner and moaner, which is how I perceive the "other side". I don't look for HOW THE OTHER SIDE FUCKED UP rather than HOW TO IMPROVE THINGS. That's just horseshit. And whoever buys into that is just a dumbass, IMHO.

You either make things better, or you don't. But to resort to "he couldn't make things better" doesn't mean that YOU did or can. Please. :rolleyes:
Posted By: AppleOnYa

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/09/06 01:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by J Geoff:
[QUOTE]...As a RECENTLY FORMER Republican, I feel safer in Bush's hands...
So just out of curiosity since you placed emphasis on RECENTLY FORMER (and if you don't mind sharing)...what are you now?

Apple
Posted By: ronnierocketAGO

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/09/06 01:06 PM

hey jGeoff, if you're no longer a partisan warrior, are you still carrying the banters for the ideology?
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/09/06 02:21 PM

This report means nothing. Bush Cheney and Rummy will continue to lie and allow Hallibirton to steal money, and the winghole sheep will believe whatever lies they are told.
Posted By: J Geoff

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/09/06 02:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AppleOnYa:
what are you now?
I consider the "Republican/Democrat" labels as one thing only: How you tend to vote.

Ideology, however, isn't so clear cut. I've always considered myself moderate altho until just the past election I've always voted Republican. Last election I "threw my vote away" and voted for a 3rd Party. :p

None of this should matter, tho. Neither side is 100% right. Hell, half the time both sides are wrong! It's more of a lesser-of-two-evils thing for me at this point.
Posted By: AppleOnYa

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/09/06 02:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
... Bush Cheney and Rummy will continue to lie and allow Hallibirton to steal money...
Boy, are you brainwashed...talk about 'winghole sheep'!!



Fact is, Haliburton had a far closer relationship with the Clinton Administration than it does with Bush. The fact that Cheney used to work for them plays no role in the current presidency.

Do your homework, dontom, if you want to be taken even close to seriously.

Apple
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/09/06 03:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
This report means nothing. Bush Cheney and Rummy will continue to lie and allow Hallibirton to steal money, and the winghole sheep will believe whatever lies they are told.
What ever happened to the DonT that used to show some degree of intellect in his discussions and posts?


Don Cardi
Posted By: Enzo Scifo

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/09/06 07:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by J Geoff:
Last election I "threw my vote away" and voted for a 3rd Party
Does that mean Nader, or are there other "3d Parties" in the US?
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/09/06 09:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:

Washington — The Senate Intelligence Committee on Friday said it had found no evidence that Saddam Hussein had ties to al-Qaida or provided safe harbor to one of its most notorious operatives, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi -- conclusions contradicting claims by the Bush administration before it invaded Iraq.


The report is based largely on documents recovered from Iraqi facilities in the aftermath of the U.S. invasion in March 2003, as well as interrogations of Saddam and other Iraqi officials captured by coalition forces.

As a result, it represents the most thorough comparison to date of prewar suspicions with evidence subsequently collected. Much of the information was unavailable to U.S. intelligence agencies and policymakers before the war.

"Much of the information was unavailable BEFORE the war."

And included in the Senate intelligence report was this paragraph:

"Indeed, the nature of the question of whether or to what extent Iraq was linked to terrorist organizations, including al-Qa'ida, does NOT lend itself to an on-the-ground fact finding investigation as easily as the WMD case. One is NOT able to search Iraq for the presence of links to al-Qa'ida as one can search for the presence of WMD and the industrial facilities capable of producing WMD."


So basically, I interpret that as meaning that the Senate Intelligence Committe investigation of Iraq having links to Al Qaeda and terrorism was not an accurate investigation because there was no hard physical evidence that could be investigated to make this committee come to a conclusion one way or another.

"The committee did, however, examine documents uncovered in Iraq and new intelligence collected, including Intelligence Community debriefs of detained Iraqis and al-Qi-ada members as a basis of postwar with which to judge the Intelligence Community's prewar assesments about Iraq's links to terrorism."


The only solid evidence that they had to go off of in this investigation regarding if Iraq, Al-Qaeda and Saddam had any ties was on the word of detained terrorists and on the word of Saddam himself.

Gee, this kind of information coming from a terrorist and dicatator makes me feel a whole lot better because we know what kind of standup people Saddam and Al Qaeda terrorists really are. :rolleyes:

Don Cardi
Posted By: Tony Love

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/10/06 05:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by J Geoff:
[quote]Originally posted by AppleOnYa:
[b]what are you now?
I consider the "Republican/Democrat" labels as one thing only: How you tend to vote.

Ideology, however, isn't so clear cut. I've always considered myself moderate altho until just the past election I've always voted Republican. Last election I "threw my vote away" and voted for a 3rd Party. :p

None of this should matter, tho. Neither side is 100% right. Hell, half the time both sides are wrong! It's more of a lesser-of-two-evils thing for me at this point. [/b][/quote]So true!

Here's an example:

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
Bush Cheney and Rummy will continue to lie and allow Hallibirton to steal money, and the winghole sheep will believe whatever lies they are told.
Quote:
Originally posted by AppleOnYa:
The fact that Cheney used to work for them plays no role in the current presidency.
Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/10/06 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Cardi:
[quote]Originally posted by dontomasso:
[b] This report means nothing. Bush Cheney and Rummy will continue to lie and allow Hallibirton to steal money, and the winghole sheep will believe whatever lies they are told.
What ever happened to the DonT that used to show some degree of intellect in his discussions and posts?


Don Cardi [/b][/quote]Did that actually exist?

I think it was kind of like a Bigfoot sighting...I thought I caught a glimpse of something, but in reality, it never existed.

Much like any combinations of the words "Dontomasso" and "intellect."

Cheers,
Double-J
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/13/06 02:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J:
[quote]Originally posted by Don Cardi:
[b] [quote]Originally posted by dontomasso:
[b] This report means nothing. Bush Cheney and Rummy will continue to lie and allow Hallibirton to steal money, and the winghole sheep will believe whatever lies they are told.
What ever happened to the DonT that used to show some degree of intellect in his discussions and posts?


Don Cardi [/b][/quote]Did that actually exist?

I think it was kind of like a Bigfoot sighting...I thought I caught a glimpse of something, but in reality, it never existed.

Much like any combinations of the words "Dontomasso" and "intellect."

Cheers,
Double-J [/b][/quote]Coming from you two I'll take your coments as a compliment. I see that piece of shit Bush used his 9/11 evening address to argue for the failed Iraq war. What a frickin putz. The only thing worse than Bush are the people who follow him.
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/13/06 04:46 PM

Actually DonT, I did give you a complment. I specifically stated that you normaly insert some intellect into your posts. Unfortuntley with your very last post you've proved me wrong.

Case in point of how your debates and comments have deteriorated as of late:

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
The only thing worse than Bush are the people who follow him. [/QB]
It's a shame because there really was a time that I enjoyed debating here with you.

See you over in the GF Trilogy thread.


Don Cardi
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/13/06 05:57 PM

DC, you can say what you want but until you admit Bush's Iraq policy and his overall handling of things has been a disaster, you are blind.
Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/13/06 08:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
[quote]Originally posted by Double-J:
[b] [quote]Originally posted by Don Cardi:
[b]
quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
This report means nothing. Bush Cheney and Rummy will continue to lie and allow Hallibirton to steal money, and the winghole sheep will believe whatever lies they are told.
What ever happened to the DonT that used to show some degree of intellect in his discussions and posts?


Don Cardi [/b][/quote]Did that actually exist?

I think it was kind of like a Bigfoot sighting...I thought I caught a glimpse of something, but in reality, it never existed.

Much like any combinations of the words "Dontomasso" and "intellect."

Cheers,
Double-J [/b][/quote]Coming from you two I'll take your coments as a compliment. I see that piece of shit Bush used his 9/11 evening address to argue for the failed Iraq war. What a frickin putz. The only thing worse than Bush are the people who follow him.

Ah, what took you so long? Thanks for taking my "coments" as a compliment. That's understandable - there aren't many positive adjectives (if any) that can be used to describe liberals like yourself. It's understandable; you've adapted.

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Cardi:
It's a shame because there really was a time that I enjoyed debating here with you.
I agree, I too miss the days when Dontomasso left for months and never posted. It was the best, most intelligent debates ever! :p

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso: DC, you can say what you want but until you admit Bush's Iraq policy and his overall handling of things has been a disaster, you are blind.
Nah. It's too much fun to watch you libbies embarrass yourselves trying to come up with conspiracy theories and more sympathy-speakers like Cindy Sheehan.

Then again...the irony is that we've got people calling us sheep when they've chosen this man to lead their party.

Baaaaaaa.

Sincerely,
Double-J
Posted By: J Geoff

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/13/06 09:35 PM

WILL YOU PEOPLE PLEASE STOP INSULTING EACH OTHER? Insult the president all you want, make fun of liberals all you want, but PLEASE STOP insulting EACH OTHER!
Posted By: fathersson

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/13/06 10:33 PM

Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/14/06 03:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by J Geoff:
WILL YOU PEOPLE PLEASE STOP INSULTING EACH OTHER? Insult the president all you want, make fun of liberals all you want, but PLEASE STOP insulting EACH OTHER!
You take all the fun out of it. :p

Besides, after all, one can only tolerate such subtle insults for so long without responding appropriately. After all, one mass generalization deserves another, no?
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/14/06 03:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J:


[quote]Originally posted by Don Cardi:
[b]It's a shame because there really was a time that I enjoyed debating here with you.
I agree, I too miss the days when Dontomasso left for months and never posted. It was the best, most intelligent debates ever! :p

[/b][/quote]JJ, you've obviously misconstrued, or should I say 'purposely' misconstrued what I posted to Don T. So please don't misrepresent what I replied to DonT to support your insults towards him.

There really was a time that Don T would give an intelligent and respectful debate by providing some insight and facts in his posts. And I used to enjoy those posts of his.

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
DC, you can say what you want but until you admit Bush's Iraq policy and his overall handling of things has been a disaster, you are blind.
So what you are saying is that until I admit to what YOUR opinion is, I am just a blind person.

I've posted many times in the past, especially over the last month or so, how I don't agree with the startegies used in this war. Now if you had taken the time to read those posts, and not have been so 'blind' yourself , perhaps you would understand what my opinions and views are in regards to the way that this war is being handled, and then there would be no reason for you to call me blind because you would have seen that I happen to agree with some of your assertions of how this war is being handled.

Just because I may agree that we needed to go to war does not neccesarily mean that I agree with the strategies that are being used to fight this war.

Case in point......


http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/military-declined-to-bomb-group-of/20060913233809990008?ncid=NW S00010000000001


..... which in my opinion was a ridiculous and frankly a dangerous decision made by those in charge of handling this war.

Now all Bin Laden has to do is make camp underneath a cemetary. This way, his knowing that our military leaders have and will adhere, at least in this case, to these ridiculous rules of engagement , (which by the way our enemies do not adhere to) Bin Laden knows that we'll never catch him as long as he hides under a cemetary!


Don Cardi
Posted By: Ice

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/14/06 04:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
DC, you can say what you want but until you admit Bush's Iraq policy and his overall handling of things has been a disaster, you are blind.
don t,

im sure there are lots of ppl who hold multi doctorate degrees in foreign policy with multi doctorates in military strategy who would say ur not worthy of their time nor their breath.
Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/14/06 04:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ice:
[quote]Originally posted by dontomasso:
[b] DC, you can say what you want but until you admit Bush's Iraq policy and his overall handling of things has been a disaster, you are blind.
don t,

im sure there are lots of ppl who hold multi doctorate degrees in foreign policy with multi doctorates in military strategy who would say ur not worthy of their time nor their breath. [/b][/quote]Or just regular folks with good old-fashioned common sense. :p
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/14/06 05:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ice:
[quote]
don t,

im sure there are lots of ppl who hold multi doctorate degrees in foreign policy with multi doctorates in military strategy who would say ur not worthy of their time nor their breath. [/QB][/quote]Is this supposed to be in English, or is it Bush-ese? And BTW name two such people with "multi doctorates" as you put it.
Posted By: Sicilian Babe

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/14/06 05:54 PM

Yadda, yadda, yadda. This discussion has gone so downhill, it's unbelievable. DC, you have remained a gentleman and tried to express your views in an intelligent and thought-provoking manner. The rest? Shame on you.

There is no reason to point fingers or lay blame, be it on the government or at one another. We ARE in Iraq, we ARE at war, we have alienated many other nations. Now, what are we going to do about it? I would love to see our forces out of there. Let them all go kill each other, I sometimes think. But after going this far down the road, is it really practical to do that?

I wish I had all the answers. And whoever "wins" the next presidential election has all my sympathy, because I believe they will be in an untenable position.
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/14/06 06:55 PM

How did things get so far? All of you know me in here. When did I ever refuse an honest disagreement? Except for this Iraq thing, which will do all of us harm. I believed that then and I believe that now. But, as a reasonable man, I am willing to listen to reason. Sicilian Babe you have made your point. Don C you have made it clear you believe the goals in Iraq are worthy but the tactics may be wrong. As for the rest, I am unsure of what your positions are. So therein lies the peace.
Posted By: Tony Love

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/14/06 07:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
There is no reason to point fingers or lay blame, be it on the government or at one another. We ARE in Iraq, we ARE at war, we have alienated many other nations. Now, what are we going to do about it? I would love to see our forces out of there. Let them all go kill each other, I sometimes think. But after going this far down the road, is it really practical to do that?
I understand where you're coming from, SB, but I believe we have all the reason in the world to place the blame on the federal government (not each other, I didn't start the war nor did any of my colleagues). We, as American taxpayers, have the right to question executive authority without being deemed "unpatriotic". Just because Bush was elected president, doesn't mean I have to kiss his ass or just accept his actions without raising a fit every time he does something foolish (that's many fits). We, the American people, did him a favor by electing him president, thus we, the American people, have the right to call a foul.

Anymore, it seems when you try this, you are labeled "unpatriotic" or "soft on terror". The White House condones this categorization and of course they do, why shouldn't they? It's playing into their hand nicely. As long as the American public corresponds to their masquerade, no progress will be made in the development of free speech. Bush's strategy for support in getting freedom in the middle east involves taking away the freedom of this country. The freedom-of course-being our first amendment. You must ask questions in order to confirm the current method is effective. Saying an exit strategy would be a "cut and run" strategy only causing chaos in the middle east. It seems to me, there is chaos in the middle east with our brave soldiers there (you've gotta be brave to be in the middle of that shit).

I can't help but notice the growing amount of terror coming out of Washington. Every time Bush defends an action of his, it's because of "terror", he's doing it to protect me and my family. Maybe if he uses enough of his scare tactics, the sheep that follow him will want to stay closer. He's warrant-lessly tapping my phones to "protect me", but for some reason, having the government listen to my phone lines frightens me more than not. Not only does it disable my civil rights, it's falsely incriminating for fradulent crimes I may admit to.

I just didn't think our founding fathers had in mind voiding out the US Constitution during a war time. Our president is doing so in more ways than one.

If Bush is over there "defending our freedom", than how come we still had it when we weren't there? Despite Clinton's imperfections, the loss of freedom wasn't an issue when he was in office (maybe the loss of virginity, but not the loss of freedom). Bush warns us of the dangers, but he's responsible for condemning our freedom, because of the way his political machine works. For now on, I'm going to consider this movement as "offending freedom" (take that how ever you'd like). The loose tie Bush had between Saddam and Al Queda has now been broken by another branch of government, making our move for freedom an offensive move and in no way avenging 9/11.

With troops over there 'offending our freedom', who's going to defend our freedom here at home? With such congressional violations, we know that the Bush administration won't.
Posted By: Ice

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/14/06 07:38 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
[QB] Yadda, yadda, yadda.
Posted By: Enzo Scifo

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/14/06 07:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
The rest? Shame on you.
Djeesh, I only asked a question you know.
Posted By: Sicilian Babe

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/14/06 07:54 PM

DT - you have shown yourself to be a true man, and one with grace and style.

Tony - I agree with your sentiments. We as Americans have every right to question the actions of our leaders. Not only is it our right, it is our obligation.

As many here know, I am no huge Bush fan. I don't agree with what he's done or many of the actions he's taken. I question his reasoning all the time. And I disagree with this war in Iraq, and feel that he has put our troops in harms way to settle what his father didn't or couldn't. However, this man went to war with a 90% approval rating, so at SOME point the nation agreed with him.

My point was that calling one another names is rather pointless and silly. We're all in this together as AMERICANS and we owe it to our troops to support them and do our best to come up with a way to bring them home. Forget the name calling, and come up with an exit strategy. Be a part of the solution.
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/15/06 01:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
However, this man went to war with a 90% approval rating, so at SOME point the nation agreed with him.

What a shame he squandered it. However the underpininings of the 90% approval rating came from the national unity we all had ater 9/11, and it is not incontrovertable that he went into Iraq under false pretenses. The democrats in the congress must share the blame for all this because none of them bothered to read the classified information made available to them, and they acted out of political expediency and fear, which they should not have done.

Now we see the beginnings of the restoration of checks and balances with McCain, Graham and others breaking ranks with the republicans over Bush's wish to tear up the Geneva Conventions, something which was preceded by the Supreme court's courageous decision telling Bush he could not have the kangaroo courts he wanted.
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/15/06 02:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:

Now we see the beginnings of the restoration of checks and balances with McCain, Graham and others breaking ranks with the republicans over Bush's wish to tear up the Geneva Conventions,
The question is, are these guys sincere in their attempts
to restore those checks and balances, or is it because they are afraid of their party losing too many seats in the upcoming elections?


Don Cardi
Posted By: goombah

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/15/06 02:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Cardi:
[quote]Originally posted by dontomasso:
[b]
Now we see the beginnings of the restoration of checks and balances with McCain, Graham and others breaking ranks with the republicans over Bush's wish to tear up the Geneva Conventions,
The question is, are these guys sincere in their attempts
to restore those checks and balances, or is it because they are afraid of their party losing too many seats in the upcoming elections?


Don Cardi [/b][/quote]You took the words right out of my mouth Don Cardi.

I think the climate is politically advantageous for members of both parties to take an anti-Bush stance for the midterms. I think it's nothing more than posturing, which McCain and others are wise to do. If this issue came up in 2005 or 2007, we would not have heard as much opposition from conservatives. They are playing the political game well.
Posted By: ronnierocketAGO

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/15/06 02:32 PM

DC, you still believe that Senators or politicians are actually sincere? Really, even taking a shit, they all have some political strategy going on with that act. Hell, I believe it with Hillary Clinton at least.

In fact, one good question I have with McCain on this stuff is, he really is risking getting his ass flanked by the Bush Republicans within the GOP in 2008. I mean, why not simply just hush up and not risk alienating those staunch members of the party? It would be easier for McCain's hired spin doctors to deal with, and less migraines to contract.

Of course, McCain is possibly also trying to pull a maneuver that, if done right, could both actually help his Presidential chances in 2008, and also really fuck the Bush Republicans up REAL good. How?

Consider this. Look at the campaigning Democrats that refuse to actually engage in the Homeland Security debate. They know they would get mopped by the GOP in that arena.

Yet, now you have McCain and former U.S. Security of State Colin Powell openly fighting Bush on this issue of torturing. Two Veteran/Military figures at least polled to be "liked" by the coveted "Independent" voters.

Obviously, some Democrats might actually use those two Republican human shields and actually attack Bush with them.

The end result? The GOP might get fractured with Bush supporters and inner-partisan opponents bitching at each other on their core meal ticket for November, and well, that "aint" for the GOP Congress.

Then comes 2008, you have Bush being as effective legislatively as the Queen of England, a Democratic-held House that is split on either wanting to impeach Bush from Haliburton, Iraq, Gas Prices, whatever, and other Dems simply sticking their thumb up Bush's ass until November 2008.

McCain will then campaign as the "action man" that a pissed-off country needs, in a world where the North Koreans and Iranians threaten the nuclear status quo, and as well appeal to moderates, while whoring out his military background for some people on the conservative right.

Again Don Cardi, I know you might wish Washington D.C. was like MR. SMITH GOES TO WASHINGTON, but its not. Our Senators and Congressmen commit every action within the halls of Congress for their self-necessary needs. Vote for stronger anti-terror legislation? Yes, look tough. Name a local highway after some local hero? I am a good ole boy! Vote to support banning flag destruction as a Constitutional Amendment? GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Of course, a few people are foolish enough to act on their actual opinions, and risk penalties. As a bizarre FUCK YOU to the patterns of history, Lieberman is lucky that he'll get re-elected despite his stand.
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/15/06 03:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
[qb]
Now we see the beginnings of the restoration of checks and balances with McCain, Graham and others breaking ranks with the republicans over Bush's wish to tear up the Geneva Conventions,
The question is, are these guys sincere in their attempts
to restore those checks and balances, or is it because they are afraid of their party losing too many seats in the upcoming elections?

I think it is a little bit of both. It is no coincidence that all of them are former military officers, and Graham was ain the JAG Corps. Also we see a lot of military lawyers saying they were ordered to go along with the program, when they did not believe in it. FInally we have Colin Powell FINALLY showing that he has a pair, and standing up for what he believes.

This is a long way of saying that at this time it is politically viable for these republican Senators to stand up against the administration,, and it will also give the democrats cover to be even more critical.

Nothing happens in the congress that isn't political, and these three senators are probably looking to the dems haveing a stronger hand in the Senate and possibly taking the House in 06 (although I dont believe they will). If that happens these three get more credibility which translates into more power. It also allows McCain to go to the country in '08 and say he wasnt a rubber stamp for Bush.
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/15/06 03:17 PM

The question is, are these guys sincere in their attempts
to restore those checks and balances, or is it because they are afraid of their party losing too many seats in the upcoming elections?

I think it is a little bit of both. It is no coincidence that all of them are former military officers, and Graham was ain the JAG Corps. Also we see a lot of military lawyers saying they were ordered to go along with the program when they did not believe in it. FInally we have Coling Powell FINALLY showing that he has a pair, and standing up for what he believes.

This is a long way of saying that at this time it is politically viable for these republican Senators to stand up against the administration,, and it will also give the democrats cover to be even more critical.

Nothing happens in the congress that isn't political, and these three senators are probably looking to the dems haveing a stronger hand in the Senate and possibly taking the House in 06 (although I dont believe they will). If that happens these three get more credibility which translates into more power. It also allows McCain to go to the country in '08 and say he wasnt a rubber stamp for Bush. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posted By: ronnierocketAGO

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/15/06 04:17 PM

Fact is, Iraq is a losing issue for the Republicans. The American people for the most part believe in the image that they are stuck in a quagmire. The Republicans' best hope is somehow to give an appearance of action on this front, instead of a "strategy" of simply moving troops to re-occupy cities months after we left them.

Democrats can be accused of cutting and running, but while this attack worked well for the GOP in 2002 and 2004, the GOP "Action Front" will loom like that lukewarm bowl of spagetti that your crappy microwave emmitted.

P.S. DT....care to reuse my political analysts in the future as well? :p
Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 01:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
Yadda, yadda, yadda. This discussion has gone so downhill, it's unbelievable. The rest? Shame on you.
Really? What's so unbelievable? The fact that we still have people making snide, charged comments and mass generalizations or that they are still here?

Besides, if you're going to get your shame on, at least admit you've directed it towards me. It's okay. I can take it.

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
How did things get so far? All of you know me in here. When did I ever refuse an honest disagreement? As for the rest, I am unsure of what your positions are.
You mean, in between calling every person even barely right-of-center a "winghole" or "Bush sheep" or some other derogatory chide that you've repeated countless times?

Actually, I quite enjoyed the Israel thread, it was the first breath of fresh air in awhile outside of the standard "winghole" comments coming from that side of the room.

Then, threads like this bring it all back into perspective.

That's okay though. I'll just use that same perspective in the following responses:

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
Anymore, it seems when you try this, you are labeled "unpatriotic" or "soft on terror". The White House condones this categorization and of course they do, why shouldn't they? It's playing into their hand nicely. As long as the American public corresponds to their masquerade, no progress will be made in the development of free speech. Bush's strategy for support in getting freedom in the middle east involves taking away the freedom of this country. The freedom-of course-being our first amendment.


Some of us have the hindsight to see the brilliant fuckjob done by Vietcong heroes like Hannoi Jane Fonda and John Kerry when they publicly destroyed the morale and support of our soldiers during Vietnam (which, of course, earned them places in the Vietcong Victory Museum). I'm sure, much like Ho Chi Minh, Osama Bin Laden sits back and has a good laugh for himself when he sees how fucking retarded some Americans are when they're off talking about this war as if its some vast right-wing conspiracy, and watches our state erode from within.

It's fine to be against the War in Iraq. But what has been espoused by some should be considered treason. Take for instance Cindy Sheehan telling the entire world that we've been using nukes against the Iraqi resistance (good idea Cindy, submit that to the Pentagon) and are raping and pillaging our way through Iraq. That's a real fine homefront for our boys and girls.

The problem for the liberals is that for so long, they've felt smug about Vietnam and their "victory" over the military-industrial complex, cloistered in their little idealist worlds and then expecting Gulf War Part Deux this time around, a quaint little military action. When we're all dead, I suppose it will be too late for them to realize what is actually happening.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
I can't help but notice the growing amount of terror coming out of Washington. Every time Bush defends an action of his, it's because of "terror", he's doing it to protect me and my family. Maybe if he uses enough of his scare tactics, the sheep that follow him will want to stay closer. He's warrant-lessly tapping my phones to "protect me", but for some reason, having the government listen to my phone lines frightens me more than not. Not only does it disable my civil rights, it's falsely incriminating for fradulent crimes I may admit to.

I just didn't think our founding fathers had in mind voiding out the US Constitution during a war time. Our president is doing so in more ways than one.
Oh, God, here we go again with another "oh no, the government is listening to my phones!" Do you think that they give a shit what you're buying at the market, or who you're fucking behind your wives back, or any other normally-behind-closed-doors actions you might be talking through phone or email? No. They've been monitoring the cells - those like the ones that wanted to blow up the Manhattan Subway. And it's been quite effective. ECHELON is a vital system that is required now that terrorists and subversives work from within our borders to destroy our country.

And all this talk of Civil Rights and such is a crock. Lincoln took away habeas corpus, bitchsmacked supreme court justices, and was the military commander in the bloodiest war in American history. I could just see liberals today destroying Lincoln. Same for FDR. Can you imagine the hell that would reign down from the ice-cold region of Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy's side of the room if we started intern camps for Muslims? Restricted immigration? Dear lord. People need to stop bitching and realize what we're up against - a subversive, effective terrorist network that uses the freedoms we enjoy to their advantage to destroy us from within.

And how the hell are they "falsely incriminating for fradulent crimes I may admit to," holy crap. Have you received any indictments lately? Are the Feds knocking on your door? :rolleyes:

The left needs to grow up and get serious, and stop thinking that (in this case) the government is out to get them. You really aren't that important, despite the self-inflated egos.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
If Bush is over there "defending our freedom", than how come we still had it when we weren't there? Despite Clinton's imperfections, the loss of freedom wasn't an issue when he was in office (maybe the loss of virginity, but not the loss of freedom). Bush warns us of the dangers, but he's responsible for condemning our freedom, because of the way his political machine works. For now on, I'm going to consider this movement as "offending freedom" (take that how ever you'd like). The loose tie Bush had between Saddam and Al Queda has now been broken by another branch of government, making our move for freedom an offensive move and in no way avenging 9/11.

With troops over there 'offending our freedom', who's going to defend our freedom here at home? With such congressional violations, we know that the Bush administration won't.
And this is exactly what I'm talking about:

"With troops over there 'offending our freedom.'"

That's a real nice message. And you wonder why people call lefties "soft" and "unpatriotic?" Here's a clue.

Furthermore, the loss of freedom wasn't an issue under Clinton because he was banging interns while we had black hawks down and a war in Kosovo. Congrats. Those wonderful military and intelligence cutbacks also were direct contributions to 9/11. So yeah, people didn't hear your phone conversations (oh, please, of course. ECHELON has been doing it forever, it's just public bitching now with a Republican in office), but they got a stained blue dress and negligence that contributed towards 9/11.

That trade-off sound good to you? 3000 people dead, some dried-up ejaculate, and intelligence agencies crippled by bureaucratic cutbacks? Yep, Clinton "rocked."


Quote:
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
DT - you have shown yourself to be a true man, and one with grace and style.


Oh...let me pick myself up from off the floor.

Is that "grace" and "style" coming in between calling us conservatives "wingholes" or "Bush sheep" or just spewing Deanish rhetoric? I'm not exactly sure, please enlighten me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
As many here know, I am no huge Bush fan. I don't agree with what he's done or many of the actions he's taken. I question his reasoning all the time.
Really? I would have never guessed.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
And I disagree with this war in Iraq, and feel that he has put our troops in harms way to settle what his father didn't or couldn't.
This has to be the most asinine argument that I continue to hear repeated and espoused as if its revelation.

It would be the most retarded foreign policy all-time to wage a full scale war to get rid of a tyrant because of a personal grudge. Assassination, funded coup d'etat, yes. American military intervention? Not so much.

President Bush went in because he felt there was a serious threat to America from Iraq, and its leader, Saddam Hussein. In retrospect, certainly it could have been handled better (as I've said many times), but please. The standard a.) war for oil b.) war to finish what his daddy couldn't and c.) war for Israel are getting a bit old and should be thrown out (or, recycled, as hippies would prefer, right?).

Quote:
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
My point was that calling one another names is rather pointless and silly. We're all in this together as AMERICANS and we owe it to our troops to support them and do our best to come up with a way to bring them home. Forget the name calling, and come up with an exit strategy. Be a part of the solution.
I concur, for the most part. Though I certainly think that some people, mostly on the left side of the room, have a strange way of ignoring reality and embracing ideology that is dysfunctional, sort of in the way Ted Kennedy believed Mary Jo was still alive at the bottom of Poucha Pond.

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
What a shame he squandered it.
Bloody wars, fueled with anti-American media, tend to sway public favor. Just a bit.

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
However the underpininings of the 90% approval rating came from the national unity we all had ater 9/11, and it is not incontrovertable that he went into Iraq under false pretenses. The democrats in the congress must share the blame for all this because none of them bothered to read the classified information made available to them, and they acted out of political expediency and fear, which they should not have done.
Please. Time and time again, be it Don Cardi or Mr. Baggins or even myself, we've cited and linked to the Democrats during the Clinton years who kept telling the American public that Saddam was a dangerous dictator who needed to be taken out and had WMD's that he'd be using against America should he have the chance.

Not exactly the "political expediency" or "fear" that you've tried to paint. Though kudos for once again spinning a pointless web with "incontrovertable" reasons for going into Iraq, will it be A, B, or C this time around?

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
Now we see the beginnings of the restoration of checks and balances with McCain, Graham and others breaking ranks with the republicans over Bush's wish to tear up the Geneva Conventions, something which was preceded by the Supreme court's courageous decision telling Bush he could not have the kangaroo courts he wanted.
Don't tell us we're soft on terrorists! Just because we want them to have better conditions than most of the low-income people in this country, have all the rights of a US citizen, and will probably be released to kill more Americans (as they've vowed), we support our troops!

The Geneva Convention, at least the rulings by the Supreme Court, was another act of judicial activism that has pretty much proven that they are the ones out of whack and setting off the checks and balances - the President is the Commander-in-Chief, the military commander of our army, and leader. Yet, they choose to both undermine his authority and rule controversially in their interpretation of the Geneva accords and how we have to treat our prisoners. Shit, couldn't we just have kept them in the secret CIA prisons, why bother telling anyone? Why bother letting the public in on this anyways. Dunno. I mean, please, go back to the WWII media censorship, please.

God (can we say God? Is that okay?) forbid we let some terrorist rot in prison, denied his "rights," but let's give the death penalty for our soldiers who put a man out of his misery, rather than letting him suffer. Where is the ACLU now? Huh? C'mon, card carrying members. Stand tall, defend terrorists, and pedophiles, and all those other desirables (like Tookie)!

Now give me your lunch money.
Double-J
Posted By: DonVitoCorleone

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 01:58 AM

Did you guys know that no terrorist organization named Al Qaeda even existed before 9/11? There was no structured group headed by Osama Bin Laden, he was just a guy that had helped to finance a couple of low key terrorist attacks in the late 90s and supported the Taliban in a similar way. The name Al Qaeda was made up by a Saudi that the 'murikans had arrested in relation to one of the terrorist attacks on American interests in Yemen. He was interrogated to the point of realizing that the Americans just needed to have some kind of concrete enemy built up in their minds and made up the name and organization that the media, the governments and the "fundamentalists" have since latched onto.
Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 02:17 AM

Well, even so, it's better than saying "those bastards who are running around blowing shit up." :rolleyes:
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 02:43 AM

Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 02:47 AM

Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 02:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonVitoCorleone:
The name Al Qaeda was made up by a Saudi that the 'murikans had arrested in relation to one of the terrorist attacks on American interests in Yemen.
Really? You're saying that a Saudi "Made Up" the name Al Qaeda?


Don Cardi
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 02:51 AM

Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 02:53 AM

What's up with all the triple posts, DC?
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 02:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonVitoCorleone:
Did you guys know that no terrorist organization named Al Qaeda even existed before 9/11? There was no structured group headed by Osama Bin Laden, he was just a guy that had helped to finance a couple of low key terrorist attacks in the late 90s and supported the Taliban in a similar way.
Are you 100% sure of that? No structured group headed by Bin Laden? He only financed a couple of low key terrorists? You're 100% sure of this?


First of all Al Qaeda translates to meaning 'The Base' or 'The Foundation.'

From the many different books that I've read and the many different experts that I've listened to the basis for AL Qaeda was actually started during the Afghanistan - Soviet war, and eventually got it's title 'Al Qaeda' towards the end of that war. It's general purpose was and still is to bring down any and all non-islamic governments who are pro-western.

Al Qaeda is based,( as is Hamas and several other islamic trerrorist organizations) on a group founded way back in in the 1920's called 'The Muslim Brotherhood' who's goal back then was to take out all non-islamic governments.

Back in 1984 Usama Bin Laden and a man named Abdullah Al-Azzam structured a recruiting and fundraising network, a muslim volunteer network which was to be known as 'the foundation' or 'the base'. The name of that network at the time was called 'The Maktab Al Khidamat'.

Originally the 'network' was not an organization made up of just terrorists. Many legitimate Muslim organizations funded this cause believing that they were supporting the war against the Soviets. However, as the war began to wind down, Bin Laden decided that he only wanted members who were committed to the cause of Islamic Jihad, a cause similar to the original 'Muslim Brotherhood' back in the 1920's. Abdullah Al-Azzam tried to restructure this 'base' organization and make it an organization that was committed to becoming an 'Islamic Rapid Reaction Force' which would take action wherever muslims were threatened.

But Bin Laden had his own ideas and wanted more than to just protect muslims who may have been threatened. Bin Laden wanted this 'base' organization made of up extremists believers to go out and take out ANY pro western government or pro western supporter. And he was the one who labled this organization 'Al Qaeda' - the base.

Azzam was assassinated in 1989 and Bin Laden gained complete control over the 'Maktab's' funds and incorporated them with his own funds to finance and support any and all terrorist acts carried out by those who were committed to Islamic Jihad and would pledge their ever lasting allegiance to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.


So as you see Al Qaeda organizations foundation was actually formned at the begining of the Soviet/Afghan war and by the end of that war it actually became known as an organization named 'Al Qaeda'. Wayyyy before September 11th 2001.


Don Cardi
Posted By: Sicilian Babe

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 05:16 AM

No, DJ, my remarks were not directed only at you. I thought that the name calling on both sides was disgraceful. If you want to argue a point, do it as DC did. With facts, with intelligence, and with respect for the person who has opposing views.

If you want to disagree with me, fine. But the point of my post was to emphasize that, disagree with this war or not, disagree with our current administration or not, we are all in it now. There's really no reason to point fingers. That's not going to solve anything. What we need to do is work together to find the best way to bring our troops home as quickly as possible. However, instead of taking that sentiment for what it was worth, you incorporated little bits and pieces into a divisive rant.

I despise words like winghole, or any other derogatory term, be it to describe anyone and their beliefs. They serve no usefulness. I'm sick of the left pointing at the right and the right pointing at the left. It's sad and it's just plain dumb. We are all citizens of the greatest country on earth, and it's time that we all remember that and try to figure out a way to work through whatever it is that awaits us TOGETHER.
Posted By: Ice

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 07:04 AM

Ohhh, look at this though.....
Here is the president of Venezuela on Tuesday; accusing OUR United States government of carrying out 911.


http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/chavez_video_bush_planned_911.htm


I voted bush for president TWICE, despite my being a 'communist' and despite the fact that I am a nut-job conspiracy ASSHOOOLE(DEEEEP VOICE INFLECTION LIKE THE GUY FROM PENN AND TELLER).....

i mean, what kind of world could live w/ the knowledge that saddam's sons were riding around raping 12 yr olds and feeding ppl to tigers and not do anything about it? ya we did something about it, maybe it wasn't legal but atleast they have a chance at civilization now. so ppl dont think its right to raise arms??? well, that why the bushes left connecticut and came to texas folks.

I'm a made man!!!
Posted By: ronnierocketAGO

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 08:02 AM

Sadly, the only people that believe in that 9/11 conspiracy nonsense are the same ones that would believe it no matter the circumstances, like evidence clearly pointing out that there was NO American/Israeli conspiracy.

Then again, just because facts and evidence contradict a belief, doesn't mean a populace will suddenly stop believing. I mean fuck, you still have Americans who despite the 9/11 Commission Report and that recent Senate report, still believe that Iraq and Al Qaeda were one, one, one in the bed with 9/11.
Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
If you want to argue a point, do it as DC did. With facts, with intelligence, and with respect for the person who has opposing views.
...

You're telling me this?

Last time I checked, the best arguments were the ones that were supported by facts and debated with a degree of civility. Most of my earlier posts (and some more recent, like the Israel and Pearl Harbor/Hiroshima debates) were structured like that. Of course, it's kind of irrelevant when you've got people who ignore facts and lambast political slurs towards you and your fellows, so rather, I'll just be content to fill the Ann Coulter void until people either stop being stupid or actually want to (seriously) debate.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
However, instead of taking that sentiment for what it was worth, you incorporated little bits and pieces into a divisive rant.
Mmm, and I did it so well, thanks.

Personally, as I said, I don't disagree with your statement mostly. I just find the ineptitude of so many people who bitch on one hand about their loss of civil rights (and then want to tie both arms around America's back in fighting against terrorism) and then cry foul when they're called "unpatriotic" when they tell us that our troops are "offending peoples rights" in Iraq.

I mean, I know Iraq was a land of gumdrops and candy slides and love before we arrived, but "offending peoples rights?" That's downright..."soft!"

As for my divisive rant(s), well, sometimes people need a 2x4 upside the head.


Quote:
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
I despise words like winghole, or any other derogatory term, be it to describe anyone and their beliefs. They serve no usefulness. I'm sick of the left pointing at the right and the right pointing at the left. It's sad and it's just plain dumb. We are all citizens of the greatest country on earth, and it's time that we all remember that and try to figure out a way to work through whatever it is that awaits us TOGETHER.
Kudos for your idealism, and I too wish this were possible, but it appears that the parties have grown increasingly far apart. The Republicans have embraced moderate policy (or at least, tried to make it look like they do) while the Democrats pick Howard Dean to lead their party. They throw out people like Lieberman because he, dear Lord (again, perhaps I shouldn't say that; God isn't allowed. Perhaps "Allah" or "Big Bang" or "L. Ron Hubbard" would be more PC), he actually (gasp) voted with Republicans on some issues!

Quote:
Originally posted by Ice:
Ohhh, look at this though.....
Here is the president of Venezuela on Tuesday; accusing OUR United States government of carrying out 911.


http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/chavez_video_bush_planned_911.htm


I voted bush for president TWICE, despite my being a 'communist' and despite the fact that I am a nut-job conspiracy ASSHOOOLE(DEEEEP VOICE INFLECTION LIKE THE GUY FROM PENN AND TELLER).....

i mean, what kind of world could live w/ the knowledge that saddam's sons were riding around raping 12 yr olds and feeding ppl to tigers and not do anything about it? ya we did something about it, maybe it wasn't legal but atleast they have a chance at civilization now. so ppl dont think its right to raise arms??? well, that why the bushes left connecticut and came to texas folks.

I'm a made man!!!


"Coming at you live, from the bully pulpit,"
Double-J
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 04:17 PM

I wonder when Double J is enlisting.
Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/16/06 11:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dontomasso:
I wonder when Double J is enlisting.
Still wondering why you're not out with the rest of the ACLU defending pedophiles or camping outside of Crawford, Texas boycotting Bush?

Also, question marks are typically appropriate for interrogative tone such as yours.

Irregardless, I'm glad to see the standard acquiescence with a fill-in-the-blank response at the end of the day from the left side of the room. Take your ball and go home.

Regards,
Double-J
Posted By: Mad Johnny

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/17/06 02:15 AM

I wonder, Ice, if you're a Communist as you admit, what are you doing in America?
Posted By: DonVitoCorleone

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/17/06 03:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mad Johnny:
I wonder, Ice, if you're a Communist as you admit, what are you doing in America?
I thought America was the land of the free?
Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/17/06 12:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonVitoCorleone:
[quote]Originally posted by Mad Johnny:
[b] I wonder, Ice, if you're a Communist as you admit, what are you doing in America?
I thought America was the land of the free? [/b][/quote]Sure, but communism will never, ever exist in America; the capitalist system has proven to be far too successful and the collapse of the Soviet Union secured its superiority over Marxist ideals.

If communists really wanted to start a collective paradise, why not go be the piss boy for Fidel in Cuba, or work in a Chinese sweatshop?

Better yet, just get the fuck out. :p
Posted By: AppleOnYa

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/17/06 01:55 PM

Anyway, there are plenty of self-proclaimed 'Communists' living in America...prospering very nicely under Capitalism while preaching in favor of a system that would take away much of what they have earned.

Apple
Posted By: Enzo Scifo

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/17/06 01:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J:
the capitalist system has proven to be far too successful
... on some places.

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J:
or work in a Chinese sweatshop?
China is unofficially not a communist state anymore, wasn't it?
Posted By: ronnierocketAGO

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/17/06 02:10 PM

Why is China still considered a communist or even a socialist state?

Fact is, the Chinese sorta noticed that with the USSR collapse, that communism for economy doesn't exactly cut it.

So, China has more and more embraced capitalism. I mean, if you're a Chinese chap, why would you care about a state that persecutes Christians or Tibetans when you're running around in your BMW, or watching MTV on your satellite dish?
Posted By: AppleOnYa

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/17/06 02:29 PM

I was in China 7 years ago for the adoption of my child.

Though it's still under a Communist Government, the grip has indeed relaxed since the demise of Chairman Mao whose memory incidentally is still treated with reverence.

Among other things, the Chinese people are free to practice religion. While I certainly wouldn't care to live there, things did not appear quite as miserable as we might imagine.

Apple
Posted By: DonVitoCorleone

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/17/06 02:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AppleOnYa:
Anyway, there are plenty of self-proclaimed 'Communists' living in America...prospering very nicely under Capitalism while preaching in favor of a system that would take away much of what they have earned.

Apple
Who says the people prospering under the system value their material posessions? People living in a Capitalist economy have to get a job, in order to stay alive. That doesn't mean they don't have the right to believe in a Communist government.

In order to survive under a Capitalist system, people are forced to conform to another human being's rules and ideals. It's a more subtle form of Fascism.

"America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve."

- Tom Morello
Posted By: AppleOnYa

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/17/06 03:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonVitoCorleone:
[QUOTE]...People living in a Capitalist economy have to get a job, in order to stay alive...
So do people in a Communist economy. Difference is MOST of their already low salary is taken out in taxes.

But I was more referring to those who own their own businesses, law practices, etc. and despite their proclaimed love of communism own spacious homes in what we like to refer to as ... 'the burbs'.


Quote:
Originally posted by DonVitoCorleone:
[QUOTE]... That doesn't mean they don't have the right to believe in a Communist government....
Of course they have that right, I never said they didn't have the right to be hypocrites. It's their right under the Capitalist system!

Quote:
Originally posted by DonVitoCorleone:
[QUOTE]...In order to survive under a Capitalist system, people are forced to conform to another human being's rules and ideals...
And this differs from Communism how?

DonVitoCorleone...you should've been born about 100 years ago. You would've been a perfect specimin for Lenin's dreamteam (or captive audience).

Hope you're enjoying your capitalist-imprisoned life there in Harrison Township, MI

Apple
Posted By: Mad Johnny

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/17/06 03:47 PM

Quote:
the Chinese people are free to practice religion.
Only certain religions and Christians (especially Catholics) are persecuted.
Posted By: ronnierocketAGO

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/17/06 04:28 PM

Man, the Chinese state persecute Christians. Hell, the government hired Google to effectively ban the Chinese from accessing Christian-web sites.
Posted By: Tony Love

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/17/06 08:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AppleOnYa:
Anyway, there are plenty of self-proclaimed 'Communists' living in America...prospering very nicely under Capitalism while preaching in favor of a system that would take away much of what they have earned.

Apple
Ain't that the truth.

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J:
Some of us have the hindsight to see the brilliant fuckjob done by Vietcong heroes like Hannoi Jane Fonda and John Kerry when they publicly destroyed the morale and support of our soldiers during Vietnam (which, of course, earned them places in the Vietcong Victory Museum).
OK, I can understand Hannoi Jane demoralizing, but John Kerry? He was a troop.

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J:
I'm sure, much like Ho Chi Minh, Osama Bin Laden sits back and has a good laugh for himself when he sees how fucking retarded some Americans are when they're off talking about this war as if its some vast right-wing conspiracy, and watches our state erode from within.
I didn't know one's constitutional right to the freedom of speech caused such destruction to our state, especially considering how the state grants us that right.

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J: It's fine to be against the War in Iraq.
Is it? You sure don't make people feel as if it's ok. After all, it's treasonous to question the military.

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J: When we're all dead, I suppose it will be too late for them to realize what is actually happening.
With extremities like that, you could work in the White House.

Quote:
Originally posted by Double J: Oh, God, here we go again with another "oh no, the government is listening to my phones!" Do you think that they give a shit what you're buying at the market, or who you're fucking behind your wives back, or any other normally-behind-closed-doors actions you might be talking through phone or email? No.
This is a typical point made by those in favor of warrentless wiretapping. I don't care if the NSA knows the color of my wallpaper or what I did to that hooker a few nights ago. That's not what I'm getting at. I look at it this way: if you start chipping away at the constitution today with acts like the Patriot Act, where does it stop?

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J
Can you imagine the hell that would reign down from the ice-cold region of Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy's side of the room if we started intern camps for Muslims?
It wasn't a good idea then and it's not a good idea now. It's what sparks the racism that has powered this country for many years. There's a difference between American Muslims as opposed to Middle Eastern Muslims: those here are our citizens, and they have the same rights that I (as a white man) have. Our soldiers fight for the rights of Americans, regardless of race or creed.

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J
Dear lord. People need to stop bitching and realize what we're up against - a subversive, effective terrorist network that uses the freedoms we enjoy to their advantage to destroy us from within.
People also need to tell the difference between national defense, and the abuse of executive power. There is a fine line between "a subversive, effective terrorist network that uses the freedoms we enjoy to their advantage to destroy us from within" and what this administration is doing to our rights and this country. It's true that they don't seek to destroy us, but they are looking to benefit from the infringement of our rights.

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J
And how the hell are they "falsely incriminating for fradulent crimes I may admit to," holy crap. Have you received any indictments lately? Are the Feds knocking on your door? :rolleyes:
They can take what you say out of context and use it against you. It's not hard to do, especially when you have the ability to listen to what others are saying without a warrant.

The left needs to grow up and get serious, and stop thinking that (in this case) the government is out to get them. You really aren't that important, despite the self-inflated egos.

I don't have a self-inflated ego, I'm only trying to defend an American document, written and created to, for, and by the American people. The government has no credibility and the notion that it's harmless to its citizens is not only false but naive as well.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about:

"With troops over there 'offending our freedom.'"

That's a real nice message. And you wonder why people call lefties "soft" and "unpatriotic?" Here's a clue.


It wasn't a shot against the military. You can parade your love of your military all of your life, but the one moment you say something that sounds remotely questionable, you're considered treasonous. Just because you disagree with what the military is doing, doesn't mean you don't support them. In fact, I want them to come home and LIVE, wouldn't the thought of soldiers living instead of fighting a war based on lies and deceit be a more patriotic move than our "lie and die" method of fighting a war? It's just a thought.
Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/18/06 09:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
OK, I can understand Hannoi Jane demoralizing, but John Kerry? He was a troop.
He also threw out his medals, and spat on his fellow "troops" by spreading untrue stories of the "atrocities" of American soldiers, creating false reports (alleged), as well as other things he did to help the Vietcong cause and get more American soldiers killed.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
I didn't know one's constitutional right to the freedom of speech caused such destruction to our state, especially considering how the state grants us that right.
It does when that speech is seditious and aids the enemy. Or, is completely stupid, ignores (purposefully or not) facts and promotes grandiose, unrealistic opines.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
Is it? You sure don't make people feel as if it's ok. After all, it's treasonous to question the military.
You're the one who claimed we're "offending freedoms" over in the Middle East.

It's one thing to be against war, be it for political, moral, or religious reasons. It's another thing altogether to besmirch the military with comments like "offending freedoms" or coming up with stories about how we're nuking innocent Iraqis (Cindy Sheehan) or the military blew up the WTC (Charlie Sheen) and then act like there's been a bitchslapping when people dispute those comments.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
With extremities like that, you could work in the White House.
Unfortunately, I prefer gorgeous Italian-Latino girls, not fat Jewish interns; I have better taste than Democrats. So I'll save my sex scandal for elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
This is a typical point made by those in favor of warrentless wiretapping. I don't care if the NSA knows the color of my wallpaper or what I did to that hooker a few nights ago. That's not what I'm getting at. I look at it this way: if you start chipping away at the constitution today with acts like the Patriot Act, where does it stop?
So if Americans die so that you're wife didn't find out about that hooker, is that fair? How many dead?

And once again, you're not that important. They don't give a fuck about that sort of stuff anyways...they key on words like "kill," "President," "bomb," "attack," "terrorist," etc.

I doubt "Ooh," "ahh," "yes," "more," and "is it really that short?" and a variety of other groans from the phone sex line will elicit much more than a woody and a 5-minute bathroom break from ECHELON employees.

The slippery slope argument gets old because, after all, none of these people who complain have ever actually been victims of all the negative effects. Whether or not you bitch and scream, ECHELON has been listening for ages to these guys.

Where does it stop? You tell me. The sky is apparently falling. I don't see any problem with the government wiretaps because its done to ensure the security of Americans. Liberals have a problem with it because it violates their "rights." Cry me a river.

I liken it to the person who doesn't lock his door. His house is burglarized, and then sues the police for not protecting him.

Liberals want the door wide open because of personal liberties, and are willing to take another 9/11 to do so, which they will promptly turn around and blame Bush for, because, after all, he should have known. Liberals seem to like to watch America squirm with both hands tied behind her back, and still expect her to win the fight.

Far greater Presidents than Bush have suspended rights and taken charge as Commander-in-Chief. The Vietnam generation, and their spawn, which I liken to a bunch of spoiled hippies, more often than not, is still stuck in idealism to realize exactly what we're up against, and what it takes to defeat them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
It wasn't a good idea then and it's not a good idea now. It's what sparks the racism that has powered this country for many years. There's a difference between American Muslims as opposed to Middle Eastern Muslims: those here are our citizens, and they have the same rights that I (as a white man) have. Our soldiers fight for the rights of Americans, regardless of race or creed.
Tough. It's called war. Why are there accounts of Muslim-Americans who knew of the attacks before they happened? Certainly the Muslim community has to work with the federal government in removing these insidious murderers from within before they have the chance to attack.

Sure, they have the same rights. But when Americans start getting killed, shit happens, and rights get suspended. It's the way it works. Lincoln had to do it. So did FDR.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
People also need to tell the difference between national defense, and the abuse of executive power. There is a fine line between "a subversive, effective terrorist network that uses the freedoms we enjoy to their advantage to destroy us from within" and what this administration is doing to our rights and this country. It's true that they don't seek to destroy us, but they are looking to benefit from the infringement of our rights.
Ugh, please. Abuse of Presidential power? Where? Because he wants to wiretap terrorists? Seriously, people need to get over themselves.

Terrorists are at work from within the borders of America to take us down. Liberals are doing everything in their power to handicap the United States from protecting our citizens. They shout that rights trump this defense. They seem to have no definition of actual sacrifice; for them, it appears that to have to wait in line at Starbucks is a violation of their civil rights.

Well, get real. You won't have any rights when you're dead because a dirty bomb went off in your city.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
They can take what you say out of context and use it against you. It's not hard to do, especially when you have the ability to listen to what others are saying without a warrant.
Okay.

Cite some cases where this has happened with the recent wiretaps, okay? Links please. Because it's fine to talk in theory, but I want to see all these wronged victims of illegal government wiretaps. :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
I don't have a self-inflated ego, I'm only trying to defend an American document, written and created to, for, and by the American people. The government has no credibility and the notion that it's harmless to its citizens is not only false but naive as well.
Crafted by the gentry elite, to promote the structure and survival of the Union. The Bill of Rights wasn't even in the original document. It was more important for efficient government than individual rights.

I never said the government was harmless; what is naive is thinking that the government can defeat a subversive enemy that takes advantage of the freedoms of this great nation to destroy us from within.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
It wasn't a shot against the military.
Saying our troops are "offending freedoms" in the Middle East isn't a shot against the troops?

It sure isn't a compliment. :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
You can parade your love of your military all of your life, but the one moment you say something that sounds remotely questionable, you're considered treasonous. Just because you disagree with what the military is doing, doesn't mean you don't support them. In fact, I want them to come home and LIVE, wouldn't the thought of soldiers living instead of fighting a war based on lies and deceit be a more patriotic move than our "lie and die" method of fighting a war? It's just a thought.
Ugh. Again, please tell me, is it going to be reason A, B, or C for the reasons for lying and deceit to go to war in the Middle East? Because I'm getting tired of beating the shit out of those dead horses.

Regards,
Double-J
Posted By: Mad Johnny

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/19/06 02:13 AM

The argument to the whole Republican wire tapping should be "The terrorist know you're tapping the lines anyways, so the whole program is useless." Not "It hurts my feelings, wha wha wha."

C'mon, I'm almost ashamed to be a liberal because the majority are to scared to fight fire with fire. Instead, they prefer a garden hose that's economically cheap because its from China and uses less water that the standard American hose so it helps save the environment.

So, remember its "They know they're being tapped" not "You're robbing me of my freedom."
Posted By: ronnierocketAGO

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/19/06 09:37 AM

Whatever MadJohnny.

My problem with these government intrusions on privacy and individual rights is that in the future, when such programs and practices are accepted as status quo for homeland security, that truely ideological people will feel righteous in the need of implementing their measures in the face of their "adversaries", and thus.....American democracy would die, and the police state would arrive.

Yeah, go ahead and laugh. Look at the abortion debate alone, with both sides feeling righteous, whatever religious or libertarian, and feeling like that "ends justify the means"....well, you get my point.
Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/19/06 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mad Johnny:


C'mon, I'm almost ashamed to be a liberal because the majority are to scared to fight fire with fire. Instead, they prefer a garden hose that's economically cheap because its from China and uses less water that the standard American hose so it helps save the environment.


Don't forget, the water we're using to fight that fire is flouridated.

Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face?
Posted By: Tony Love

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/20/06 04:24 AM

Posted By: Mad Johnny

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/20/06 04:44 AM

I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.


God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all
Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/20/06 12:07 PM

Jack... Jack, listen, tell me, ah... when did you first become, well, develop this theory?
Posted By: Mad Johnny

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/20/06 12:53 PM

Well, I ah, I I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.

Yes a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly: loss of essence.

I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women... women sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake, but I do deny them my essence.
Posted By: Tony Love

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/21/06 05:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J:
[quote]Originally posted by Tony Love:
[b]It wasn't a shot against the military.
Saying our troops are "offending freedoms" in the Middle East isn't a shot against the troops?

It sure isn't a compliment. :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]If you have read my previous messages at all, you would have understood that I support our troops. I love the men and women who lay out their lives for the sake of this country. The point I was trying to make with the "offending freedoms" statement, which you apparently took out of context, deals with this administration, and our foreign policy. It only relates to the troops because they are the people who are carrying it out, they're only following orders and I'm not holding them responsible

What I meant was, without this war in Iraq, we would still have the freedoms we currently possess. I'm aware that the president is over there fighting for democracy over seas. But I'm addressing the point he has been trying to make in saying that without this war, here in America, we would be unsafe and democracy would be insecure.

I'm not unpatriotic or a terrorist-sympathizer just because I suggested something unorthodox, so lets not be so quick at waving accusations.
Posted By: Mad Johnny

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/21/06 05:43 PM

Your commie has no regard for human life, not even his own. And for this reason, men, I want to impress upon you the need for extreme watchfulness. The enemy may come individually, or he may come in strength. He may even come in the uniform of our own troops. But however he comes we must stop him. We must not allow him to gain entrance to this base. Now, I am going to give you three simple rules. First, trust no one, whatever his uniform or rank, unless he is known to you personally. Second, anyone or anything that approaches within 200 yards of the perimeter is to be fired upon. Third, if in doubt, shoot first, and ask questions afterwards. I would sooner accept a few casualties through accident than lose the entire base and its personnel through carelessness. Any variation on these rules must come from me personally. Now, men, in conclusion, I would like to say that, in the two years it has been my privilege to be your commanding officer, I have always expected the best from you, and you have never given me anything less than that. Today, the nation is counting on us. We are not going to let them down. Good luck to you all.
Posted By: Double-J

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/22/06 01:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
For now on, I'm going to consider this movement as "offending freedom" (take that how ever you'd like)...With troops over there 'offending our freedom', who's going to defend our freedom here at home? With such congressional violations, we know that the Bush administration won't.
That's the original quote. Don't know what other "context" you'd like it in, but you've specifically said our troops are "offending freedom."

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
What I meant was, without this war in Iraq, we would still have the freedoms we currently possess.
That's pure (and baseless) speculation. After 9/11, there would have almost certainly been an increased surveillance (including wiretaps) and restrictions on personal freedoms irregardless of a War in Iraq.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
I'm aware that the president is over there fighting for democracy over seas. But I'm addressing the point he has been trying to make in saying that without this war, here in America, we would be unsafe and democracy would be insecure.
Well, let's think about this (logically).

Terrorism originates from the Middle East.
It spreads to America through cells.
To stop the cells, we have to prevent them from growing in America through surveillance and counterintelligence.
To stop the root of terror, we must hunt them down where they exist in the Middle East.
Terrorists, and their existence and proliferation, threatens our freedom, safety, and democracy.

I must be missing the part where if we weren't at war, we'd be safe and cozy...

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Love:
I'm not unpatriotic or a terrorist-sympathizer just because I suggested something unorthodox, so lets not be so quick at waving accusations.
Waving accusations? I'm just calling you on your comment saying our "troops are offending freedom," I never said you were unpatriotic. Your comments are speaking for themselves.

Regards,
Double-J

---

P.S.: I think you're some kind of deviated prevert. And I think General Ripper found out about your preversion, and that you were organizing some kind of mutiny of preverts. Now, move!
Posted By: Mad Johnny

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/22/06 03:10 AM

Colonel, can you possibly imagine what is going to happen to you, your frame, outlook, way of life and everything, when they learn that you have obstructed a telephone call to the President of the United States? Can you imagine? Shoot it off! Shoot! With the gun! That's what the bullets are for, you twit!
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/29/06 02:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Double-J:

Well, let's think about this (logically).

Terrorism originates from the Middle East.
It spreads to America through cells.
To stop the cells, we have to prevent them from growing in America through surveillance and counterintelligence.

[/QB][/QUOTE]


Clearly this means we need more stem CELL research.
Posted By: Mad Johnny

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/29/06 03:06 PM

Is it just me, or were a crap load of threads deleted from the boards and a few others edited?
Posted By: SC

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/29/06 03:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mad Johnny:
Is it just me, or were a crap load of threads deleted from the boards and a few others edited?
Its just you. :p

There were some technical problems that caused the last week's worth of posts to be lost. ALL threads were affected.
Posted By: dontomasso

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 09/29/06 05:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SC:
[quote]Originally posted by Mad Johnny:
[b] Is it just me, or were a crap load of threads deleted from the boards and a few others edited?
Its just you. :p

There were some technical problems that caused the last week's worth of posts to be lost. ALL threads were affected. [/b][/quote]No huge loss, some of the threads in General Discussion can get quite repetitive.
Posted By: Don Smitty

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 10/02/06 05:53 PM

I believe the Senate like I believe in Santa.

ds
Posted By: Don Cardi

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 10/02/06 08:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Smitty:
I believe the Senate like I believe in Santa.

ds
Since when does the senate get moved up to the same level as Santa?


Don Cardi
Posted By: Tony Love

Re: Senate Confirms No Link Between Al Queda and Saddam - 03/14/07 01:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Double-J

Cite some cases where this has happened with the recent wiretaps, okay? Links please. Because it's fine to talk in theory, but I want to see all these wronged victims of illegal government wiretaps.


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