Pat's Thoughts Volume 60: Random wonders

Helllllllllllllllo all. Just some random thoughts that have entered my mind in the past few days.

Ok, first thought, it's kinda random, but I'll let ya hear it. So my one friend Lloyd is in my grade and so is his brother. Lloyd is 18, but his brother is 20. He turns 21 in February. Alright, so here's the thing. His brother is mentally handicapped. He has down syndrome and cannot even really communicate.

So I was just wondering and it came to mind.. if he's 21, that's the legal drinking age. So I was curious to know if it is legal for Lloyd and myself to walk into a beer distributor with his brother after he turns 21 and purchase alcohol with him? Just curious. And if you take this the wrong way or something, don't, I'm just wondering. If you continue to want to take it the wrong way, than shove it.

Alrighty then, moving along here. My second thought has to do with the image of marijuana today compared to the image it was given in the 60's, 70's, and some of the 80's. From what I have read in books and seen in movies, pot was something that most teens experimented with back in the 60s-80s and it was given the image of just an average drug like alcohol. Today it is given the completely different image and people who experiment with it at all are looked at as criminals. Some are even put away behind bars for longer terms than sex offenders.

So my question to you is: What was it like back in the day compared to today? Could you get away with more? Think 'Dazed and Confused' and 'Fast Times at Ridgemont High.' Accurate or inaccurate portrayals?

And for my final thought, I just wanted to say, Iraq is my generation's Vietnam. Good day.

You'll have to explain that one more. Tell the scenario that you are asking.

If we literally walk into the place with the guy and we go to get it and carry it for him, then we hand his brother the money to give to the clerk, then leave with it.

That would be illegal and would probably get the 21 year old arrested. And I doubt the person behind the counter could sell it to you knowing its for underage kids.

How is it illegal if he is 21 though? I used to go into the beer distributor with my dad all the time. As long as I don't hand the clerk the money or carry it out. I could ask the clerk to carry it out to my car. You only have to be 18 to transport alcohol.

As an educator, I would like to know more about Lloyd's brother. If he is a 20 year old with Down Syndrome, how is he still in school? Was he retained at any point? I'll wait to give any of my thoughts until I hear your answers because that is quite a puzzling situation.

My two cents here. Are we talking about using a mentally handicapped person to get your booze for you?


Don Cardi

I have no idea. Fellas, I highly doubt we would ever try to pull it off, I am just curious to know if it can legally be done.

This is how I interpret it, don't get me wrong.

You want a mentally handicapped person who will be of legal age, to get you alcohol which you can't get because you aren't of legal age, right?

But he some times drinks. What I'm trying to say is that it's going to be as if he's purchasing it for himself. Here, imagine this scenario. Let's say that my grandfather is in his late 70s and has problems getting around. I take him out grocery shopping and he decides he wants a case of beer from the distributor. Is it legal to go in and help him get it if I'm underage?

I'm still curious to know about how a differently abled person can still be in school when they are 20 years old. Please Pat, I don't post often, but you created an itch that absolutely needs to be scratched. If you have any details about this young man, I would absolutely love to hear them. Plus it will give you a little break from having to deal with what you wrote about the booze.

I don't know bro. I'd imagine maybe he started late and also ended up going to pre-first.

Very interesting. I actually find the fact that this young man is still in high school more shocking than anything else you wrote.

No decent, normal person would ever even consider using and putting a mentally handicapped person in a postion like that! Someone would have to be pretty desperate to manipulate and take advantage of a mentally handicapped person for their own benefit and enjoyment.


Don Cardi

Okay DC, thanks for completely ignoring anything I addressed.

Pat, I didn't ignore you or what you addressed. You brought up a scenerio and I gave you my opinion on that scenerio. That's all. Now if you do not like my reply, then that's fine. But don't make it look like I didn't address your scenerio.

The guy is mentally handicapped. No one should take advantage of him and use him for something like that. As much as he may be legal to buy that booze for an underage person, and not fully realize what he is doing, by the same token hs is just as legal to get into some serious trouble if he is caught buying that booze for an underage person.

He can't be legal for one aspect and then not be legal because of his handicap for another aspect.

Someone can really cause some unnecessary problems for this poor guy.


Don Cardi

See, that's all I wanted to hear DC. Grazie for the input.

Have a derelict buy you drinks like any normal teen.

You want booze that bad? Then just have some stones and buy it yourself, you lazy bum. I don't care that you're underage. Underage people every where can get booze.

Unless, you buy crap and the clerk ID's you because he hates your choice of beer.

This post reminds me of the South Park movie when the kids got that homeless guy to get them into the theater to see Terrence and Philip. :p

If I can rape an autistic girl knowing that she would never be able to communicate in order to turn me in, I don't see why Pat can't have a guy with downs syndrome to buy him drinks. :rolleyes:

Well on the topic of 'Dazed and Confused', I went to high school in Texas in the mid to late 70's, when Linklater's film is set and it is a very accurate portrayal of that place and time.

Pat, most things legally come down to the mental capacity to carry out functions. If a contract is formed in a situation where one or more party's are incapacitated, ie, drunk, stoned, some mental handicaps, then the contract is void.

It really depends on how sound of mind your friend's brother is and whether they've been coaxed into the act.

I've done some awful things for beer but Pat, c'mon, I know you haven't said you're going to do it but you're at least thinking about it. If you're 18 just come to England and you can get drunk every day of the week.

I don't think he will do it. His morals are still higher than his need to get drunk, according to me.

Pat, how 'stupid' is that 20 year old? I don't know jack shit about the Down syndrom, so if he actually would buy the booze and give it to you, would he realize he is doing something illegal??

Besides, Pat, think about the possibilities. The lack of oxygen to your brain will give you a far-better high than any of your ill-begotten alcohol.

It's obvious by your using the word "stupid" in reference to that person with downs syndrome, that you really do not know jack shit about Downs Syndrome. So here you go :

Down Syndrome, chromosomal disorder that results in mild to severe learning disabilities and physical symptoms that include a small skull, extra folds of skin under the eyes, and a flattened nose bridge. Muscle tone throughout the body is usually low. The condition was formerly known as “mongolism” because the features of people with Down syndrome were thought to resemble those of Mongolian Asians. This term is now considered offensive and inappropriate and is no longer used.

Down syndrome occurs in about 1 out of every 800 births worldwide. In the United States each year, about 1,600 babies are born with this condition. Down syndrome results when a person inherits all or part of an extra copy of chromosome 21. This can occur in a variety of ways, the causes of which are unknown. The most common chromosomal abnormality that produces Down syndrome (accounting for about 95 percent of all cases) is Trisomy 21, a defect in which an extra, third copy of chromosome 21 is present in every cell in the body.



Don Cardi

Wikipedia -- Down\'s Syndrome

Pat, I really hope that you aren't seriously considering this...

It's obvious by your using the word "stupid" in reference to that person with downs syndrome, that you really do not know jack shit about Downs Syndrome. So here you go : [/b][/quote]I put the '...' around it. I didn't mean stupid as in dumb, but more like... you know, how does he think as opposed to people who don't have Down.
I actually wanted to use an other, less denigrating word, but my English vocabulary was lacking. I didn't know a word resembling my thoughts.

Btw, I already knew everything you wrote in italics, DC.

I guess the politically correct word would be "ignorant."

Most have taken the moral high ground here. Fine, but you continue to look outdated and outfashioned and, even with common sense, generally old. With wisdom, it seems, many people sacrifice basic ability to communicate with somebody who is of an entirely different generation. Grow up, oldies.

Pat's young; all he asked was for a fact regarding the legality of the situation. He did not ask for a judgment of the moral decency of the situation. He even said that he was simply curious.

And even when Enzo specifically puts stupid in speech marks, and admits he knows Jack Shit about Down's Syndrome, we get a know-all parrot telling him that...hey, guess fucking what, you don't know Jack Shit about Down's Syndrome. No shit, Sherlock. And so we're treat to a Biology class too; which is grrreat. But how does a mini-essay on chromosome disfunctions explain how Down's Syndrome differs from "normality"?

Nonetheless, by sharing his "idea" with us, we are fully justified in judging his actions as morally reprehensible, which they are.

And his youth shouldn't be an excuse, especially in this case. Does it take someone of considerable age to know that using a mentally handicapped person for illegal gains is an abhorrent, condemnable act? Shouldn't he, as a 18-20 year-old be more responsible than this (of course, then again, since he is illegally purchasing alcohol, I guess we can throw responsibility out of the equation altogether)?

It's like me making a thread...

"I'd like to shoot small animals and then burn their eyes out of their sockets. Does anyone know which brand of ammunition would be best for slow, painful kills, and then an apporpriate butane torch to perform the ocular removal?

Thanks,
Double-J"

Yes, that's exactly what it would be like. And judgment of the morality behind your post is irrevelant, and, to the poster, unneeded.

Pat's age isn't an excuse; I would hope it isn't. Nor should he be made to feel like he should be more responsible.

Who are we to judge anything?

Then, I digress, I think Pat should refer to my aforementioned diagrams for further instructions as to how he should proceed.

Then again, if he doesn't like it, "shove it."

What, no Phil Collins?

You say this, but earlier, you qualified your statement by indicating that Pat's age plays some sort of role in how we should interpret this thread, otherwise, you wouldn't have said it.

So you're saying that, if he carried out what he suggests in the first post, Patrick's actions would not be reprehensible or wrong, despite the fact that he is not only breaking the law, but taking advantage of a mentally handicapped individual?

Breaking the law? Then let the Law deal with that. Unless requested, I would not appoint myself as moral judge and intervene. Unless I cared for Pat as a friend, which, as seen in the past, the oldies (those who have taken on such moral concern) do not.

What's the justification behind such supposed concern and willingness to set things straight as regards what may be stupid or what may not be stupid about Down's Syndrome?

1. Concern for the Down's Syndrome kid? Give me a break; and a yawn.
2. Concern for the Law being broken? I know it is The American Way to be conscientious and righteous, but in Cyberspace, it's ineffective.
3. Concern for Pat's spiral into depravity at such a young age? Nobody learns from mistakes before a mistake is made. Regret, and thus willingness to change, only come with living out the consequences of such mistakes. Surely the Wise among us realise this. Or have they forgotten in their old age what it was like to be young?

My reference to Pat's youth was to accentuate the fact that most of the serious criticisms in this thread have come from the oldies (plural? hmmm), who, of late, are really showing their age. And what would they say in defense to that? That I of course was showing mine.

...Zing!

Do I hear noises from the children's table?

I am so impressed with the attempt by a certain young member here to show his ability to try and make himself appear smarter than he really is by hiding behind the use of fancy words to really cover up his insecurities and ingnorance. This elder gives him an A for effort because of his repeated efforts time after time to hide his ignorance, but at the same time use fancy terms and words.

However there will come a time in this child's life where he will no longer be able to hide behind this facade and will be faced with the reality that with all the book smarts that he may have picked up in his childhood years, he really didn't learn shit about the real world and what life really entails.

And maybe someday, when the wetness behind his ears drys up, he will listen to others that he crosses paths with in life and will get rid of that chip from his shoulder, so he can understand that the fantasy world that he lives in right now is not the real world that he will someday face.


Don Cardi

You did?


Don Cardi

Like I said...

I'd invite you into the sandbox, Cardi, but you alas do not qualify: you need an imagination, first off. And then the ability to think beyond the cage society has placed you in, and then you must embrace the difficulties of communication between different ages, cultures, languages even, and people in general. So that, even when a Belgian speaking English (how many langauges can you speak?) openly admits he is in need of a better word, you do not feel the need to teach him a lesson of definitions. With, as ever, text from an external site. Hello, Mister Wikipedia. Or Whateverelse might be used to find somebody else's definition of something. In the sandbox, we encourage free thinking; nothing is definite when it is made of sand. It's actually a whole lot of fun.

So, in answer to your (rhetorical) question, of course you hear noises from the children's table. Who on Earth would want to be part of your adult society?

As I said in another thread lately, what kind of criticism is "tut tut tut"? How incredibly effective do you actually consider your pointing finger?

As I said , and you probably missed it in your rush to get your last post up:


It's sad that you have such a huge chip on your shoulder. Better be careful because one of these days you will run into somebody that will definitely knock it off for you. Then again, maybe it will make you a much nicer person. I feel sorry for you son, your too bitter inside for such a young child.


Don Cardi

You did? [/b][/quote]At first, when I was scanning my brains for info about Down, I didn't find anything. There are many mental and physical malfunctions with all their different names and symptomes, and biology isn't interesting enough for me to study it that intensely.

After reading your short description of the disease, I remembered what Down is. I in fact learned about it at school, not so long ago.

And now I think about it, my English is actually not that bad.

My, we're all mature in here.. :rolleyes:

I can't believe what I'm reading here!

Capo is one of the smartest, most intelligent and worldly young men I've ever had the pleasure of "meeting"! "I believed that then, and I believe that now..."

Both points are valid, but on different levels.

And even though I, too, personally have a feeling that Pat may be considering using such (what I'd consider) an abhorrent tactic as a means to secure alcohol, it still remains that he asked a "legal" question.

It's probably technically legal, but I wouldn't want to look so pathetic as to try it myself unless this young man could express himself clearly enough that he wants to purchase alcohol for his own use. If that was not the case, then I'd consider it morally wrong to use anyone -- for anything -- for one's own gain.

As for my youth, I was lucky that my folks had a liquor cabinet and hardly ever drank! I also left it to our older friends to pick stuff up for parties...

One side of me wants to say "It's illegal to drink until you're 21 years of age - don't do it!" but the other side hasn't forgotten his youth (I think I'm still in it! )... it's going to happen. All I ask is that young adults (and everyone for that matter) NEVER drink and drive!!

OOOH!! A pissing contest!! I think I'll "wade" in despite the fact that I met get "hit".

First of all, Capo, Pat asked a question, DC answered the question, and provided some factual information to someone who didn't seem to know what Down's Syndrome was. Oooh, what an evil, unimaginative man DC is!! How dare he provide a definition!!

DC, hang your head in shame! You - you - definer you!!!However, according to Capo, you're an old fart, so chances are that you won't remember this whole thread by tonight anyway.

Pat, actually I'm pretty sure that what you're describing is completely illegal. It is against the law to buy cigarettes for someone who is underage. I am sure that law would apply to alcohol as well. Add into the mix the fact that this young man is not capable of making a sound decision (you describe his capabilities as being quite limited) about his actions, and you could truly find yourself in big trouble.

Capo, Since you seem to be ready to judge people on their age, being an oldie myself, I was a tad offended by your condemnation of my generation. Of course I remember what it was like to be young. Of course I remember trying to obtain alcohol before it was legal to do so. However, when older people comment on the behavior of the young, it may be because we hope that those that are younger might benefit from our experience and our mistakes. If you don't want to, then fine. But don't comment that others are pointing fingers when you seem quite ready to point your own.

I can't reply right now because I'm about to head out, but I'd like to hear some more input on the image of marijuana and how it has changed (if you think it has) when I get back. I'll be sure to reply to everyone. Take it easy.

As for marijuana, I don't think its perception by the youth (who do or don't do it) has changed much probably. Nor do I think adults who've done it (regularly) during their youth would necessarily condemn it now -- for themselves or other adults who choose to use. But you will have a hard time finding many parents who would condone it for their kids or other young people.

The US Gov't still thinks it's the most awful thing out there! Ever see any of those old gov't propaganda films? How teens who smoke pot turn clinically INSANE! Ever watch Reefer Madness? Totally over-the-top and ridiculous - however, it seems laws against it are much more tougher. At least depending on where you are and how much you have on you.

I was never a regular smoker, and had no problem with those who were (except their acting like brain dead morons sometimes ). I make partake now and then these days, but not that often at all. Would I condone its use in youth? Nah. But would I condemn its use? Probably not.

Personally, I don't see pot being any more harmful than alcohol. In fact, it's probably less so. I've never seen a mean smoker. But as always -- do NOT toke and drive!! (you may get a ticket for going too slow )

Ah, reminds me of the Police Convention segment of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, where Duke watches the propaganda reels with all the cops...

"Know your dopr fiend... His knuckles will be white with tension, and his eyes will be hidden under dark teeshades. His pants will be crusted in semen, from constantly jacking off when he cannot find a rape victim."

I'll reply in the good old-fashioned you-said-me-said way, if only to defend and not attack back. I'm as bitter as it is, after all, and being knee-deep in piss kind of gets a little smelly after a while.

That's too literal a description, I'm afraid. The tone of the post is open to much more interpretation than that. And why on Earth would you think I called Cardi "evil"? By what definition do you go by?

Actually, quite the opposite.

Wasn't it implicit enough that I questioned my own use of the plural? Perhaps next time I should be more considerate of others who fall into the same category of those I am "attacking". And, by the way, I had no idea you were an oldie.

A bad way to teach, I think; nobody learns unless they want to. Don't give wisdom unless it is requested. Otherwise, it falls on deaf ears; and it can get tiresome living in hope.

Alas, in Cyberspace, the furthest you can go is to wag a finger at a wagging finger; otherwise, I'd be happy to chop it off.

After reading this reply to SB's post, I think that Capo has made my point for me! Thanks Capo!


Nuff said.


Don Cardi

It seems we're both unwittingly proving each other's points. At least we play some relevance in each other's lives.

When I was in court the other day there was a graduate student (in late 20s I'd say) in trouble for giving alcohol to a minor (a 20 year old girl).

The mentally handicapped do have the right to buy alcohol, but it is illegal for them to pass it to a minor. Do you want to get this guy in trouble if you guys are caught?

If he can barely communicate, can he communicate these alcohol needs to a cashier?

Everything he says is just true .
He reasonably explained what he meant: how has that something to do with 'young naiveness', or whatever you call it?

Capo, I am usually a huge fan of yours. I think that you are a bright, witty and funny young man. You are also obviously well read and write fairly well, too.

I do admire the arrogance of youth. After all, maybe we "oldies" are a bit too worn down by life to be quite so full of piss and vinegar. However, you also should cut us a little bit of slack. We have lived longer, we've hopefully learned some things along the way, and there is a chance that we may be able to pass along some of it, if only anyone would listen.

I can understand that you may find us preachy, perhaps even hypocritical. I'm sure that I've done my share of eye-rolling when someone older started a sentence with, "When I was your age...". Since you are intelligent and well-read, however, I was hoping that you would be a bit more open-minded than most.

Oh, by the way, Capo, don't tell me you don't judge people by their age when you've posted things like this:

And then in another post:

Puh-leeze!!

You kidding me? I don't know how many times my stomach has nearly exploded because of the munchies. Seriously, I call them dangerous munchies when you can NEVER get full.

Read up on Jack Herer. Basically there are a lot of uses for hemp. To get mashed, medicinal purposes, create fibers, paper, And importantly it can be used as an environmentally friendly alternative fossil fuel. Yes that's right, as a fuel. Now there's a consipiricy, that Jack Herer attests to, that industries, particularly oil, threatened by hemp lobbied to outlaw it in the US. In turn the propaganda begun - eg. JG's real examples and l_l_c's Fear and Loathing's satire on it.

Is it plausible that the oil industries can put that much pressure on the Government? Of course. Whether it's true or not is another matter but I'm sure you'll have fun finding out.

For some reason, all I can picture here is a the delivery truck made of marijuana from Up in Smoke.

Like I said, nobody learns unless they want to. And, also like I've said, living in hope can get tiresome. So is repeating yourself. So I shan't patronise you any further.

Okay, so you've (and I don't mean you personally) lived longer. Longer inside the box, especially, and boring because of that. Cut the youth a little slack too. We're still young enough (arrogant enough?) to have ideals, and, thank heavens, ask questions. I can't think of anything worse than social inertia. Individual inertia is just as bad. And you can learn just as much from us youth, too, even if you don't realise it. Superiority in age does not equal superiority by intellectual default. Many are under the illusion that age and wisdom automatically go hand-in-hand. They don't.

Actually, I consider myself woefully under-read, but whatever. I've been called pretentious in the past because I've had an opinion or two to say on Film; being called narrow-minded (in so many words) because I have, if anything, tried to broaden those of others, won't change my philosophies for a bit.

Good point, I suppose; I've failed to communicate my intentions: perhaps it's just ignorance, then, and not age. There are, certainly, many people of the older generation with whom I get along with fine; I don't think it's any coincidence that I connect with these because of their open-mindedness to today's youth, and willingness, perhaps, to move with the times. But again, perhaps that has nothing to do with age, but simply an open mind.

I also lament that you took my comments so personally, if only for falling under the same category of the party I attacked.

But right now, I'm just standing here, drenched in my own piss, waiting for somebody to knock the chip right from my shoulder. I can't wait for it to happen; the way it was described above makes it seem somewhat enlightening.

Capo, my sweet, I have never said that I can't learn from the young, or the old, or from anyone who might shed light on a dark place. As you implied, if you stop learning, you might as well be dead. Kind of like a shark that stops moving, I suppose. And I did take your comments a bit personally for one reason and one reason only. The one thing that I simply can't tolerate is anyone who lumps people into a group and assumes that they all think alike. It doesn't matter if it's by geography, by race, by religion, by age; not only do I find that type of assumption intolerable, I find it a tad dangerous.

No ones going to come anywhere near close enough for that to happen as long as you're two steps into a puddle of your own urine... :p

When you clean all the piss off of yourself let me know and I will be glad to knock that chip off your shoulder and enlighten you.


DS

Well, since I lack the money to come to the States just yet, Smitty, do you own a passport?

Count me in the oldies' group, folks! . Yet I love learning from younger people and teaching them as well, depending on the circumstances. I'm not biased at all.

I'll refrain from repeating all moral judgements other oldies already provided and I agree with. I'll just underline that IMO we are totally entitled to tell how we feel about a question since the very moment such a question is put to our attention. And if this question got a moral implication, well, we are to tell what we think about.

The saddest thing about this thread really is the importance alcohol got for some people. The younger the sadder.