Young Girls Sing Racist Rhetoric

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1231684&page=1

Wow. :rolleyes:

That's all we need, children bred to be racist at such a young age. What sickens me the most is the love and support that these folks have for the Nazis.

:rolleyes:

>>April's father surrounds the family with symbols of his beliefs — specifically the Nazi swastika. It appears on his belt buckle, on the side of his pick-up truck and he's even registered it as his cattle brand with the Bureau of Livestock Identification.

"Because it's provocative," explains April of the cattle brand, "to him he thinks it's important as a symbol of freedom of speech that he can use it as his cattle brand."<<

-----------------------------------------------------------


Let's scream and yell to remove religious symbols from public places, let's go to courts to take the words Under God out of the pledge, let's protest for the removal of all and any references to God from society. But it's ok to allow these girls to promote racisim and hate by singing these kinds of songs and sporting swastikas in public.

Then everyone wonders why this country is becoming a crazy place with no morals in it.

Don Cardi

I wonder what would happen if someone from a religious background were to use a religious symbol such as a cross or a star of david to brand their cattle, and registered it with the Bureau Of Livestock?


DS

But if we take away the freedom to "allow these girls to promote racisim and hate by singing these kinds of songs and sporting swastikas in public" we've begun our descent down the slippery slope.

Who decides what written words, songs, sayings, etc. do or don't promote racism?

And don't people have the right to be racist if they choose to, and to promote racism if they wish to?

And isn't the Nazi Party a political party? Surely you're not suggesting that we start selectively banning certain political parties with whom we don't agree, are you?

(You knew I was gonna say this, didn't you? :p )

Nazi's represent a group who murdered and tortured millions of people. They breed hate. They should never be recognize as a political party. They should be recognized as murderers and hate mongers. Nazism should be outlawed period.


DS

The same way we began our descent down that same slippery slope when the freedom of allowing one to promote their religious beliefs by displaying religious symbols such as Nativities or Stars of David in public places?


Don Cardi

That depends......

Do you want to look at it as one big slope, with many slippery sides to slide down, or several different slopes, equally slippery?

And here's one for you, Don Smitty....

You want to outlaw the Nazi party? OK, I'll give you that one.

How about the Communist Party? They were a bunch of murderers under Stalin, etc., and still are today in the Asian countries rukes by Communism.

And if we ban the Communists, we might as well outlaw the Socialist Party, too. After all, they're awfully close to being Communists.

Then we could do the Liberal party next. Aren't they almost like Socialists?

And after we take care of the Liberals, let's outlaw the Democrats.

I'd much rather live in a country where any party is allowed to exist, rather than having a decision made for me about which parties are legal and which aren't, and, more importantly, wondering about who is going to make that decision.

Well it all depends on which slope YOU were refering to. :p


Don Cardi

Mine is the big one with many slippery sides.

And sometimes common decency, morals and respect for others needs to be considered when dealing with hateful people like this. Sometimes common sense needs to take over. People like this can only cause hate and division in the world.

Basically these girls and their parents are saying that there was nothing wrong with what the Nazi's stood for and did to millions of people. That what they did was ok!


Don Cardi

You and I are perfectly entitled to disagree with their opinion, which they are perfectly entitled to have.

Allowing them their opinion is one of the prices we must pay to live in a free society. Once you start to outlaw unpopular opinions - and again, who is to make that decision? - our society is no longer free.

Brace yourself, I happen to agree with plawrence.

This family has the right to express their feelings, however hateful. They also have as much right to disrespect the feelings and views of others as we have to disrespect and disagree with theirs.

Now, if any harm were to come to this girl and/or her family due to their beliefs, then THAT would be a crime and any attempt to ban them or their song would probably be brought to court.

The best way to deal with stuff like this is give it as little attention as possible...however, as we've learned, human nature dictates otherwise .

Apple

In the free marketplace of ideas just about anything goes.
If you do not like what you are hearing, don't listen.

If they express their feelings through song and with symbols of how it is ok to kill millions of people, and how it is ok to torture millions of people, then that tells me that they wouldn't think twice themselves of killing someone because of their religious or ethnic background.

I guess that burning a cross is also ok then because a person who deos that has the right to express their feelings. :rolleyes:

I have to laugh at this. Because over in one thread, an implication was made that because a dress code was put into place by an organization that has an 85% African American membership, it is a racially motivated rule, and that it shouldn't be implemented because of it's possible motives.

But here, a family is singing Nazi songs, dispaying Nazi symbols, preaching hate, but that is not racially motivated or wrong. Give me a break. :rolleyes:

Dangerous, very dangerous. Talk about entering the slippery slope.


Don Cardi

Why does that only apply to something that you choose stand up for?
If that is the case than if you don't like it when I say UNDER GOD in the pledge then don't listen.


These kinds of people with this kind of attitude and hate are destroying the moral fabric of our country. DC is right, if they believe in Nazism and what it stands for, then they agree that its ok to murder and torture people who are from a different background. They will do it too.


DS

And I agree with Apple... again. Big sister?

Wasn't it you who agreed that it was okay to torture suspected terrorists? Does this mean that you're a Nazi and that you're demoralizing the country? Puhleeze. What are your opinions on the Communist, Socialist, and Black Power parties in the US? Should they be banned also?

And check out a pic of these chicks. Wow, so hot.

You know DT, they tried not to listen until Munich, and then WWII begun...

Well OF COURESE it's racially motivated, and OF COURSE it's wrong in the moral sense, but that doesn't deny them the right to preach, wear their symbols and sing their songs...as long as they do not physically harm anyone or anyone's property while doing it.

As for the 'destruction of the moral fabric of our country', Nazi-ism has been alive and well for many years, so has the Klu-Klux-Klan, so has the Nation of Islam - all are racist, all preach hate and that hasn't done it yet.

Apple

How can one best combat such verbal hate?

Ignore them.

Pat, you are so off base with that comparison. We are talking about a race of people, Nazi's, who tortured and maimed people for research purposes. They broke babys arms over and over again to see how many times it could be broken before that baby would die. They brought innocent familes to gas chambers and gassed them to death for no reason except that they were of a differnt religion. Nazi's tortured and killed millions of people for the sheer hecll of it. To rid the world of a race and religion of people that they did not want around anymore. Maybe you need to pay more attention in school so you could learn about these things then instead of sitting on your computer throughout the day.


If communists, black power, and any other party in this country breed hate preech hate and carry out hate crimes against innocent people then they should all be banned.


DS

Pat, you are so off base with that comparison. We are talking about a race of people, Nazi's, who tortured and maimed people for research purposes. They broke babys arms over and over again to see how many times it could be broken before that baby would die. They brought innocent familes to gas chambers and gassed them to death for no reason except that they were of a differnt religion. Nazi's tortured and killed millions of people for the sheer hecll of it. To rid the world of a race and religion of people that they did not want around anymore. Maybe you need to pay more attention in school so you could learn about these things then instead of sitting on your computer throughout the day.


If communists, black power, and any other party in this country breed hate preech hate and carry out hate crimes against innocent people then they should all be banned.


DS [/b][/quote]What do you mean I should be in school? Where do you think I am right now? And you didn't answer my question. Did you agree that it was okay to torture suspected terrorists? If you agreed that it was okay to torture suspected terrorists, then doesn't that make you no better than a Nazi who wants to murder someone because of religion or race?

well I think they need to go back to school and fine out who
won the war or go to Germany with that bull

There is a HUGE difference between reciting "under God" in the pledge and the rights of these girls to sing their horrible songs. One is a government-sponsored pledge which should not be espousing God. The other is a private record label whouch should be allowed to sell what they want to. You also have the right to not buy it. If enough people don't buy it, the company will go out of business. It's that simple.

I agree that the Nazi's were horrible beyond all measure. How anyone in their right mind could want to support the Nazis, knowing what we do today about what they accomplished in their time, I don't know. But why is that so difficult to believe? They managed to sway an entire nation.

And is it so difficult to imagine that these girls have been raised in hatred? They've been surrounded by propaganda and they were isolated (I notice that they are home-schooled) from other ideas and from society in genereal. It's the same as those little children we saw celebrating on September 11th. A theme of hatred has been drilled into them since they were born.

That said, I have to agree with Patrick and Plaw and Apple, these kids have every right to sing what they want. Allowing the Nazi's to march and sing also gave Martin Luther King the right to do so.

Pat, sometimes you need to think with the big head, and not the little head.

And not for nothing Pat, as far as the Nazi party goes, we're talking about a movement that tried to exterminate a whole race of people. In the early years, people said " Oh just ignore them, they'll go way." But they grew stronger and stronger because no one would pay attention to what they were doing. Before the world knew it, they grew into this powerful race of people who were now causing havoc on a huge population of innocent people, murdering them and torturing them by the millions. Caused a world war that gave way to the sacrifice of many lives.


Anyone that believes, preaches, advocates, and symbolizes the murder and torture of millions of innocent people is capable of doing the same things themselves. These two girls have this Nazism of hate imbreaded in their minds, they were raised with it as being a normal way of life.
How many times in the last few years have we picked up a news paper or turned on the news only to find out that the 5 students who opened fire on their schoolmates were believers in Nazism, etc.?


Don Cardi

Don Cardi, you really think Americans are Germans?

Really, the President would be really displeased at you for making such a suggestion.

Ok, then tell me something SB, if you want to seperate Governement sponsered stuff with private industry, then why whould her father be allowed to file and brand his cattle with a swastika if that organization that he has filed his sawstika logo with is a goverment agency?


Don Cardi

Ronnie, where did I say that?


Don Cardi

"And not for nothing Pat, as far as the Nazi party goes, we're talking about a movement that tried to exterminate a whole race of people. In the early years, people said " Oh just ignore them, they'll go way." But they grew stronger and stronger because no one would pay attention to what they were doing. Before the world knew it, they grew into this powerful race of people who were now causing havoc on a huge population of innocent people, murdering them and torturing them by the millions. Caused a world war that gave way to the sacrifice of many lives."

With that idea that we shouldn't just "ignore" them in America, that is where I made my post from.

Besides DC, how would the so-called "Liberal Media" allow for this to happen?

What do you mean I should be in school? Where do you think I am right now? And you didn't answer my question. Did you agree that it was okay to torture suspected terrorists? If you agreed that it was okay to torture suspected terrorists, then doesn't that make you no better than a Nazi who wants to murder someone because of religion or race? [/b][/quote]Yes, if ur in school right now pay attention to your teacher. Also, I did answer your question, and dont call me a Nazi, my grandfather was shot in the forehead at Normandy fighting those pigs. Why does it have to come to name calling all the time? Iam sick of it. It seems like no one here can have a decent conversation anymore without calling people names?

DS

These girls sing horribly out of key (Lamb and Lynx? ) I don't think even Nazis like the music.

Still, the fact that this people are allowed to spew their hate is disgusting.

The best part of the article was in the last couple paragraphs in page 3

well I think they need to go back to school and fine out who
won the war or go to Germany with that bull [/b][/quote]Agreed. Oh, and Neo-Nazis need to go and study that their strong, immortal leader Adolf Hitler commited suicide like a coward 60 years ago.

Ronnie, there is nowhere that I say that Americans are Germans. So please do us all a favor and stop putting words in others mouths. Of course you're more than welcomed to be a part of this discussion, but if you are not mature enough to contribute to and be a part of this discussion, then don't resort to infintile antics.


Don Cardi

Even if this were true, which I don't believe it is of anyone that believes, preaches, advocates, etc. ... it still does not take away their right to believe, preach, advocate whatever cause they want.

Whether you & I agree with it or not.

I'm sure that we all agree with you Don's Cardi & Smitty - that what this family believes and symbolizes and sings about is horrible. But I'm not sure what you mean by 'common sense' prevailing. Surely you do not mean that they should be locked up or prevented from expressing their views....or that any misfortune befall them...???

Apple
Apple

Well certainly, I was disturbed by how I felt you "implied" that Americans could drive down the same road as the Germans did over 70 years ago. I apologize if you didn't mean to do such a thing.

Thus, that does still work my general statement, which is the best American way to rid of these groups is to ignore their attention-grabbing rhetoric. In fact, most rallies by Neo-Nazis and "Klan" members purposely spread their message by getting angry pissed-off people from the majority/non-hating masses of America to come to their rallies in "Protest". I mean, think about it. You know I'm onto something.

In my country, it's a crime wearing a swastika, saying the holocaust never existed, or being pro-Hitler. Isn't that the case in the USA? (just a question, not meant ironic, to clear out misunderstandings)

Socialists are not so close to communists as you think. Socialist want a rather strong state, while the dream of communists is no state at all.

Socialists and liberals are also not so very close. Liberals want less social security, and less state. They want the economy to lead itself, and they want the state not to intervene in the economy. That's the definition of liberalism.
However, liberals are always pro-humanism, and thus when it comes to ethics, liberals and socialists are kinda close.


People have been saying for 10000 years that morals are diminishing. Why would it be true now?

Apple,

Are you telling me that if a person believes that the Nazi's mass murder and torture of millions of innocent people was just, that when this person professes to be a member of the Nazi party and supports their beliefs, when this person speaks and preaches about hate and supremecy over other races and religion, and advocates the actions of committing crimes against humanity, that the person does not necessarily have the ability to carry out those crimes?

I cannot speak for Don Smitty as to what he means about common sense prevailing, but I can answer for myself.

If someone like this goes around preaching hate, supporting crimes against humanity, supports a party that has a history of commiting biased crimes and has the background of senselessly murdering and torturing millions of innocent men, woman and children, then you bet that I think that they should be locked up! Common sense tells me that this person is dangerous.

As for their expressing their views? Well there are laws in this country that are made to protect the people of this country that may fall victim to these hate mongers. It is not their right to express their view and make biased anti semetic remarks, or biased anti christian remarks, or biased remarks in general against a person. It is not their right to "express their views" or excersize thier "freedom of exspression" when those views or expressions can cause harm to another human being.


Don Cardi

Yes.

What we're talkinig about here is freedome of speech. And it is not their views or expressions or their off-key singing that can cause harm to another human being. It is the carrying out of assault or torture or imprisonment or murder of another human being BASED on those preachings that would be illegal and subject to punishment.

And as stated above, I don't necessarily think that everyone who embraces and preaches Nazi-ism is truly capable of carrying out those actions against others. Some may be, but not all.

If you can name for us a law that this family in particular is breaking that should warrant their being 'locked up', then please name it for us.

Apple

DC, I think that they have the right to brand their cattle and wear their belt buckles and sing their songs. What do I have the right to do? Not buy their beef or their records.

Are these people capable of murder? I don't know. Any time any humann places greater value on one race or creed over another, it is dangerous. It is the same mentality that allowed Americans to deal in slavery. Their slaves were considered sub-human, so they were worked and traded and treated like oxen or horses, or worse. The same with Nazis. The Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and the mentally and physically challenged were treated as subhuman and targeted for extermination, or used up as slave labor, and then exterminated. The others, such as the Poles, were imprisoned in concentration camps and used as labor as well, but were not targeted for extermination (if they happened to die because of the atrocious conditions, so be it).

Do I think these are horrible people with sick and twisted thoughts? I certainly do. But as I said before, the fact that they are allowed to march and sing is protected under the same freedoms that gave civil rights activists, war protestors and suffragists the right to do so.

I think the only reason this even made it into the news is because they look like such sweet little girls.

They're not the first people in this country who have sung racist songs or made racist art, and they certainly won't be the last.

There are millions of Americans who are just like them. Some are less obvious than others, and many disguise their racism and pretend that their concerns lie elsewhere, such as financial status. A lot of people pass their racism off as snobbery, because that's more socially acceptable. But that's flawed logic because there are rich people from a lot of different races, and the snobs I'm referring to still don't accept them.

The family in the article wants to move the the NW because they want to find a white community. You guys think that's unheard of? Here in California, we have several white communities. Especially in Orange County, the land of the "gated community." They're not labeled as white communities, but they are. If you see a Mexican in some of those communities, it's because he's mowing a lawn. I'm sure this is even more true in states that are not as diverse as California. My point is that if this mentality exists even here, where we have so many different races of people, how much more does it exist in middle America?

Furthermore, I mentioned racist songs and art above. That is not only white supremacist art that I'm talking about. The Getty Museum here had an exhibit of African American art a couple of years ago. There was a lot of racism and "down with the white man" concepts in it. Same with Mexican-American art from the first half of the century. There's some beautiful art from that style, especially the 1920s and 30s, but a lot of it is so racist.

And people who think that those sentiments died with the times are completely out of touch.

This can't really be banned. How do you legislate against personal prejudices and free expression? People can be educated, and many are. So far in this thread, everyone has agreed that this family is morally wrong. This means that even though there is no law saying that we must disagree with them, we do anyway. If you want the government to stop them, on what grounds can you justify so much government involvement in something so immaterial? They're not killing anyone, they're not taking anyone's rights away, and they're not even staying close enough to any minority groups to inflict any harm on them. They're moving away from them, even. I say let them sing their little hearts out if that's what they want to do, and focus on and arrest the people who actually are out there committing hate crimes and murders. That just seems a little more pressing to me than a couple of 13-year-old Olsen lookalikes singing about white power.

Again, it's the media influencing things and blowing them up to almost iconic status. In never ignoring the attitudes and values it detests, and deciding to make it into a big issue, the media is actually encouraging "wannabe rebels" to automatically find a culture worth being part of, in order to rebel against society's values.

Seriously, the same works with all "sub-cultures" and the like; if the media stopped reporting how bad hip hop fashion was, for instance, I bet we'd see a lot less people adhering to it.

Mick

They're 13, you read that right?

its okay, Patrick doesn't know Jailbait when he sees it.

No. In the United States you are allowed to believe in whatever you so choose, so if you want to believe that the Holocause didn't exist and that Hitler should run for president posthumously, you are entitled to do so.

I'm surprised that the whole Hitler thing hasn't brought more anger from the left. After all, the last time I mentioned Adolph people wanted to ban me. :rolleyes:

Pretty disgusting.

They're 13, you read that right? [/b][/quote]Hey I just turned 17..

Still you're what a senior in high school and you're calling someone in 7th or 8th grade hot?


Whatever floats your boat, I guess

It'd be 8th. A little touchy new guy?

yes

I find myself agreeing with Plawrence on this one(yo plawrence don't let this go to your head this will probably be the only time )

As much as we may/may not agree with it these girls have the right to sing about whatever they choose. And if they or their grandfather choose to show the Swastika then again that's their right.

To curtail their freedom of speech would be going down a very slippery slope. Cause then we could possibly loose the first amendment altogether. Someone will always have a problem with another persons views/beliefs, that will never change. Hell I have several friends who claim the holocaust never happened.

Why does that only apply to something that you choose stand up for?
If that is the case than if you don't like it when I say UNDER GOD in the pledge then don't listen.[/b][/quote]Here's the difference:

The Pledge is, in effect, "sponsored" or "sactioned" by our government. If you want to say the worrds "Under God" when you recite the pledge, fine, but the words should not be part of the official pledege.

Of course we've had this argument before.

Should the words be part of the pledge and let people omit them, or should they not be part of the pledge, but let people say them?

I really don't care to go around in that circle again.

But the difference is obvious.

Here, we are "standing up" for the rights of our citizens to have unpopular views.

If it were the governement espousing these views, of course I would object.

I fail to see any inconsistency here.

If you are willing, for the sake of argument, to assume for a moment that the NBS dress code is discriminatory, then:

NBA Dress Code = Discriminatory = "Morally" Wrong = But the NBA has the right to implement it

Nazi Girls = Hateful = "Morally" Wrong = But they have the right to spew their hate.

Nobody wanted to ban you.

It was just that comparing a member here to Hitler was considered by some to be, shall we say to put it politely, in "poor taste".

As far as this thread goes, there are really two things going on here:

First, is the views of these people and their support of Nazism with the attendant hate that goes along with this views.

Second is the right of these people to have these views.

I chose to adress the second issue only. I personally detest Nazis, as I do members of several other political persuasions.

I think (or, at least, hope) we can all agree that Nazis are despicable people, etc., and to add my agreement to that would merely be redundant.

Neo- Nazis initiate people into their groups by requiring them to do acts of hate, such as assaulting racial- ethnic people, beating or killing persons perceived to be homosexual, desecrating synagogues, and burning churches with racial- ethnic or multi-cultural membership.
Here are some acts of violence carried out by neo-nazi groups in the last year alone:


In Los Angeles, CA.- a group of skinheads were arrested and found guilty for trying to provoke a race war by plotting to shoot members of an African-American church.


In Eugene, OR.- members of a neo-nazi group are arrested and found guilty of throwing rocks, engraved with sastikas, through the windows of a synangogue during religious services.

Springfield, MO.- a member of the neo-nazi creativity movement is arrested and found guilty for beating his roommate because the roommate is not willing to share the same neo-nazi views.

Lawrenceville GA.- members of a neo-nazi party are arrested and found guilty for burning images of swastikas into the lawn of a Jewish families home.

Gresha, OR.- neo-nazi skinheads are arrested and found guilty of threatening and assaulting an African American man with a machette.

Fond du Lac, WI. - A member of the Nazi Party is arrested for manufacturing and selling pipe bombs to a federal agent.

Santa Fe, NM. - Four teenage boys are charged with spray-painting swastikas and racial slurs, burning a cross and leaving a noose on a tree at a black woman's residence. Turns out that 2 of the boys father's were supporters of a neo-nazi group.

In Carson NV - a 16 year old teen was sentenced to 10 years to life in prison. The crime? Sexually assaulting a fellow student as an initiation requirement to become a member of a white supremist nazi group

And the unsoved crimes of Sastika Neo Nazi symbols that were painted or etched into Schools, Homes, Businesses, etc. are just tooo many to even list.


It all probably started out harmless, the singing of the songs, the wearing of swastikas, etc. because someone was "afraid" to violate thier rights! :rolleyes:


"Like they shoulda stopped Hitler at Munich, they shoulda never let him get away with that, they were just asking for big trouble..."


Don Cardi

Don Cardi...the acts you outline above appear to be examples of Nazi supporters who DID eventually commit horrible crimes to support or avenge their cause. It also appears that in each case, they were charged/prosecuted/jailed only AFTER commiting the crimes, not while 'harmlessly' singing songs, wearing swastikas, etc. because someone was "afraid" to violate thier rights!.

And it's not a matter of being 'afraid' to voilate these rights...it's the simple fact that if charges were brought against people for singing songs, wearing symbols, and basically practicing their right to freedom of speech, the cases would be thrown out quicker than I could read the next 3 pages of The Godfather.

And...this still doesn't prove that EVERYONE who preaches or displays symbols of the Nazi movement is cabable of actually DOING to other human beings what the Nazi's did.

And...all these stories of other people's crimes still does not alter the right of this family and their daughter(s) to do what they are currently doing.

Apple

Don Cardi, I appreciate your non-tolerant stance against those extremist groups. I think, however, that forbidding those parties will do no good. First of all, it is always dangerous when the state dictates what opinions you are allowed to have and which you don't. It can be used in a bad way, just as some people argue that states are decreasing civil liberties in the name of anti-terrorism.

In Belgium the authorities made the flemish-nationalist party Vlaam's Blok illegal a few years ago. The next day it reappeared as Vlaam's Belang... The same things have happened in Germany where, naturally, national socialism is forbidden. So just forbidding those parties doesn't work.

Also I think that forbidding people to have some views is dangerous because the risk is that it actually make them stronger since they can picture themselves as martures and victims.

It is much better if society keeps informing, in schools and other places, about the lessons of authoritarianism, nationalism and racism that we learned in the 20th century. We have to fight extremism with humanism.

Nobody wanted to ban you.

It was just that comparing a member here to Hitler was considered by some to be, shall we say to put it politely, in "poor taste".
[/b][/quote]You didn't get the PM's I did, then. :p

Also, I didn't compare Patrick to Hitler. I simply suggested that his ideals might have been in syncopation with that of our old friend Adolph.

Here's a video from ABC about the two little Hitler Youth:

Video

Simply put, one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

From my textbooks, specifically "Modern Times" by Paul Johnson, it comes down to about 6 million Jews and 4 million non-Jews dead because of Hitler.

10 million too many if you ask me.

Though that pales in comparison to Stalin 45-million milestone.

So you don't hold Hitler responsible for any of the deaths in the US, GB, France, or USSR militaries?

I'm under the impression that Double-J was talking about Hitler's extermination of Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, etc.