Ken Bigley Be-headed

Pretty discusting.. story

Another tragedy.

Although, I'm sure not as bad as those 'nasty' marines who kill their enemies instead of "restraining them"... :rolleyes:

Yes, it makes so so sad. The first (beheading)one was a big deal in the news, now I fear it's just something "accepted" as part of this horrible and unjustified war.

Poor poor guy!!! I heard that he was trying escape, but don't know if that's true. My heart goes out to his family.


TIS

I agree that the American soldiers should get next to or no greif for that, considering what their enemies mighr do to them if they were prisoners.

What don't you understand? TIS is right. This type of thing is just becoming a standard. Nobody worries when they hear "black hawk down" anymore. When the paper says there's been another car bombing, it's just another bold headline and people casually skip over it to see the stock quotes. The casualties in this war have just become numbers now instead of people. The humanity is lost and that's when a war truely becomes extremely dangerous.

Not as bad? It's all bad, death anywhere in any war is bad. You have become so accustomized to death and casualties in the war, one death is now different than another to you. It's all bad because it was NOT nessesary. Granted I believe the beheading of innocent civilians is much more devistating than a soldier who is killed in combat. These soldiers are there fighting an unjust war and their deaths are more than tragic, but when innocent men are BEHEADED for helping out, that's when it crosses the line.(Not that it already hasn't in my opinion)
Think about that, the man, with a family, begged for his life and had his HEAD CUT OFF! And you think thats not "as" bad. I reiterate, it's ALL bad.

Doctor Ferro

Marines Thread

Get around the forum much, "Doctor?"

Don Ferro,

You totally misinterpreted Double-J's post. You need to go and read the original thread regarding our Marines' shooting of the enemy. Then you will understand that Double-J was being very fesicious in his post. And rightfully so.


As TIS said, these beheadings are horrible, these killings are horrible, and because of the daily "play by play" the media does on this war, it is making many immuned to the horrors that are taking place. As for it being an unjust war, that is totally another issue that I will have to discuss with the Lovely TIS face to face over a "CUTE LITTLE BLUE " drink! ( I love ya no matter what TIS! ) But one thing that we all should and I think do agree on, if your for the war or against it doesn't matter, because we ALL must support the soldiers and mourn at the horrible losses & beheadings that are ocurring at the hands of our terrible enemies.

TIS, President Bush sent me an e-mail and asked me to tell you " Don't EVER take sides against the family again!"


Don Cardi

JJ,
I just started posting again on this site a couple days ago and did not realize you were refering to this thread. I've never seen it before. I understand now, and am very sorry for jumping to a conclusion. I thought you were implying that the beheading was different to another death in a bad way, so naturally I was offended. I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions and hope to prove you wrong on many of your other beliefs.

Now back to business.

Doctor Ferro

An atrocity, and if anybody watches this on the Net intentionally, I have nothing but immeasurable disrespect for you.

But what was Bigley even doing there in the first place? He didn't deserve to die, but he simply should not have been there anyway.

Mick

It's very sad for the family and all of us -- and pretty pathetic that they have to resort to such barbaric tactics.

But on a lighter note - I must be a bit dyslexic, cuz when I first read this subject I thought it said actor Ben Kingsley and I was like WHAT??

And what are you drinking tonight?


Don Cardi

Not likely, but I commend you for being so steadfast and dedicated towards your goal, however impossible it may seem.

I find it odd how they took their time with this guy but killed the Americans as soon as they could. -Pat

Could be because they hate us.

That is true, but it's also an indication that Brits are indeed more lovable than Yanks. :p

Mick

That is true, but it's also an indication that Brits are indeed more lovable than Yanks. :p

Mick [/b][/quote]Not really, I would rather be beheaded FASTER then slower. I mean, who wants a slower death as it is?

They held him for longer, but the death itself was just as quick. Big difference. Though I agree, in Bigley's position, perhaps it would be better for him if they spared him the anguish and got it over with quicker without false hope.

Can't tell from your post whether you missed my joke, but just in case you did, it was a joke. I don't want to be part of a debate on whether Bigley was killed faster or slower than the American victims, so I'll stop here. :rolleyes:

Mick

I know it was a joke, I just thought you ment the speed of the beheading, and I got confused on why a slower death would be better.

This was just awful. Over the weekend there was mourning accross the country, especially in Ken's family's city of Liverpool.

Apparently, Ken had managed to escape with the help of one of his guards who he had befriended. He had also (allegedly) acquired a gun when he made his bid for freedom. Unfortunately he didn't get far and his captors caught up with him after about 30 minutes and subsequently beheaded him. Such a horrible, appauling, degrading and humiliating way for someone's life to end. I'd prefer it if they just shot me in the back of the head and got it over with, if I was in that situation.

I don't know why he was kept alive longer than his American colleagues - perhaps the kidnappers thought they could bargain with Tony Blair? Pretty unlikely considering the female scientists they wanted freed are being held by Americans and not the British...

We did all get our hopes up though - the British Muslim council even sent a delegation over to Iraq to appeal to the kidnappers.

My thoughts and prayers to all Ken's family.

I have a hard time understanding the outrage expressed here over a beheading. Is it the act of the beheading or the circumstances of the victim? With respect to the act of beheading; it may seem barbaric, but I don't see it as any different than suicide bombers attacking people eating in a restaurant. Different weapons, same intent. You could even say that about computer-guided missiles.

Humankind has not advanced since the days of caveman when it comes to resolving differences. Only the choice of weapon has changed in some cases.

Keep in mind that most Westerners who are there working are making $1,000 a day or more. They know the risks.

A thousand dollars a DAY for MOST people. Where did you see that? A could believe a few people, here and there doing high risk jobs or super special jobs, but most? Hell, if that is true you may just see some of our low paid people from the boards taking off for a few weeks and filling their pockets so they can buy Videos, CD and concert tickets. Or even money for a new car.

And this somehow makes it right that they are brutally murdered?

I guess Nicole Brown Simpson knew the risks, too. :p

Don't take it out of context, he didn't say it was right. He merely said it happens every day in the world; just the way people get killed are different and he mentioned they were told it is dangerous to go there but they accept the danger because of a good pay. Personally, if I ever get a US or UK citizenship; I make sure never in my life go to Iraq thereafter. Heck, even with my own nationality right now I have a hard time imagining how I can dare to there.

Couldn't agree more MaryCas, well said.

It doesn't matter. These people are still trying to make a living and put bread on the table. There are people where one of my parents works who have a choice of being layed off or going to Saudi Arabia or some other middle eastern office.

So before we say, "well, they know the risks," let's also consider this is murder, and these aren't military casualties, these are civilians.

I don't think when the US military accidently hits civvies that you would say, "well, those people knew the risks."

They live there too.

Those people are breadwinners, doing their job, and trying to stay safe. Some are unfortunately not successful.

MaryCas,

Your point is well taken, that both ways that they murder is definately brutal. No question about it. But just think of something for a second; If you are working or walking and a bomb blows up, you are not expecting it and therefore it does not work on your mind. Not to say that it is not a horrible way to die or suffer, but it hits you when you are not expecting it, and therefore you have no time to think about it. Now consider being tied up, held for days and being told that your head is going to be cut off! That is pure torture! It's got to make your mind crack knowing that someone is going to slowly cut off your head. It must be very painful both physically and mentally. I don't think that anyone was actually trying to say that a beheading is brutal and getting blown up is not. But I do think that what is trying to be said is that a beheading is slow torture and is a horrible way for a person to KNOW how they are going to slowly be killed.
Bottom line, all these acts of murder are barbaric! Remember, we are dealing with animals anyway, and they deserve to lose thier souls!


Don Cardi

Don't tell me how it is to be laid off from a job, I was laid off myself from my job while I was in the US and I went through the headaches. If I had to choose between going to Iraq or Saudi Arabia and still be able to get a good pay to maintain my life or in my case going back home or even working in a restaurant for $20 a shift, I would still choose not to go to Iraq or Saudi Arabia and that's my personal opinion.
I don't think when all people are trying to solve their conflicts with war there ever be safety in a place. A murder is a murder to me and unfortunately there are so many civilian casualties from the both sides you have to mourn for ever if you look at each one of them.

Afsanech77,

Where is your home actually? Are you now in Iran? Are you originally from Iran?


Don Cardi

Don Cardi, I'm Iranian, I was born, raised and went to school in Iran and right now I'm back to Iran.

I just did.

I find it arrogant to think that people somehow reduce the ideology of these murders by saying "people knew the risks."

I find it even more arrogant that when Iraqi civilians get killed in an air raid, and don't get me started on that, you say well they were gotten killed in the process that we were trying to give them freedom. Is that freedom in the vocabulary of those who support war? I even find it more terrible to see Iraqi people had to be there. It's going to be two years that they have to live in that chaos. It was their home. But I sure don't have to be there and I feel so blessed because of that and I'll never think of going there for a second. A murder is a murder and if you don't understand it, it is just fine, because if everyone in this world was understanding there never was such problems.

I read this story in the paper today, about how a tribute in a mosque to Ken Bigley has been smashed up... Story Here

Yet Another Tragedy, He was going to retire at the end of september and what really upset me was his brothers crying on the news.

I think that is disgusting, birmingham is a place that is very multi racial and for this to happen is going to cause alot of aggro, just shows some of the yobs thier is in england.

That's terrible. I don't even want to imagine how his family feels.

No, that is not freedom in the vocabulary of those who supprot the war. Yes, it is a fact that in any war there are bound to be civilian casualties, and that is very heartbreaking and sad. But let's not forget that before this war in Iraq, the leader of that country and his two animal son's were torturing innocent people, maiming them, building mass grave by all that they killed, and had them living in fear. There is absolutely no way that you can tell me that the Iraqi citizens were better off when when Saddam and his son's were in power! I recieve letters from 3 different soldiers on a monthly basis, who are son's of friends of mine. They are over there risking there lives every moment of the day to protect, free and educate the Iraqi innocents. When you read these letters you get a better sense of what is actually taking place over there. Yes, it is a mess, and that is the only part that the media portrays to the people, and that is definately how your arab media over there is painting the U.S. soldiers, to be invaders and murderers. But in the letters from these soldiers they convey thier disgust at how what is going on is portrayed. They are outraged on how the arab media lies to thier own people. They write how they are seeing a big change in Iraq, for the better. How Iraqi children are going to school for the first time, how Iraqi families surround them and thank them for helping and freeing them. They tell about how many Iraqi families tell them that for the first time in thier lives they have fresh running water in thier homes, and electricity 24 hours a day! How they are reciving medical attention when needed. They tell our soldiers how they never ever knew that many of these things existed, things that we take for granted, and thank them for providing these things to them! They tell how Iraqi people ask them to take them back to America! Why is it that these positives are not shown to the rest of the world, especially in the arab media? Are those in power in the Arab world afraid that thier people, many who are still surpressed, will realize that democracy and freedom are a great thing? I am not talking about religion here, as that has nothing to do with it. What I am trying to convey to someone from your part of the world is that what you are being told by those in power, through your media, is not the way that it is. Our soldiers are there to help put a democratic system in place, help rebuild a country that has been surpressed for many years, and help protect the people from the insurgents and terrorists who do NOT want the Iraqi people to be free. Let me leave you with this : If America is so terrible, then why do we have an immigrant problem here? Why are so many people from all over the world banging on our doors to come into my country? Why did you, yourself, come to my country to make a living? I don't mean that in an arrogent way, as it is not my intention to be hostile towards you, but I sincerely would like to understand why people such as yourself, come to my country to make a living and a life for themselves, and then trash my country! If it is so good over there, why have so many arab people come to America in record numbers over the years?

Again, I am not trying to embarass or talk down to you, but I just want to understand and hope that you can answer my questions!


Don Cardi

I went to your country because without a doubt it is a great country, I've enjoyed so many things that America has offered the world. I don't think in my last posts or any other of my posts I ever tried to trash America. The only problem is I'm against this war. I can still love America, and say God bless America and half of my heart actually belongs to America but I have a different opinion about American foreign policy in the Middle East.

Iranians are not Arab. They are Persian and this is very important to me because my country has suffered Arabs attacking her over the history. That sound very arrogant of me but it is a touchy subject for me.

I don't only see our news, I check all other news stations like BBC and CNN. The fact is the condition in Iraq is very bad. And other thing, in Iraq people were going even to university so I don't get it when you say kids go to school for first time now. That is true about Afghanistan though which I'm not talking about. Iraq, Syria and Iran have real good universities. Even women here can go to school and study whatever major they want. I'm a woman myself and I majored in EE.

By the way, I've left your country after I was laid off and it was right before the rumors of war with Iraq started. I felt if this was Iran that the US was going to attack would I feel okay to stay over there and pay taxes to finance bombs that might hit our house and get my family killed? And I felt so much confused that I decided I'm better off if I go back. I don't know if I made the right decision but that was what I felt I should do. I'm against war because I was raised under such condition when we had a war with Iraq. I know what it is like when your town is under air raids. I'm sorry but I can't approve of this war, not that I approve of Saddam, but I think freedom is what people of a country have to gain themselves over the time.

Afsenah,


Your point is well taken and I totally respect your feelings. I can understand why you feel the way that you do. I never said that you trashed my country, and I apologize if that is how it sounded, but it was not what I said or was I trying to say. I appreciate that you have responded in a humane way and that you've explained why you feel the way that you do in such an admirable manner. Thanks for giving me some insight and sharing your veiws. I hope that you may want to get a better understanding of why I feel so strongly the way that I do by reading an old post of mine regarding the day of September 11th 2001. You can do a search for it right on this board.


Don Cardi


Don Cardi

Don Cardi,

You are more than welcome and I apologize too if I in anyway sounded harsh about this matter.

Of course I was in the US that September day and I can't forget how I felt myself. It brings tears to my eyes every time I see the horrible videos of that day. I'd be glad to check your post about that day hopefully tomorrow morning since it is very late in the night here right now. But so that you know, I hope those who cowardly attacked innocent civilians on 9/11 get caught and rot in hell.

God bless!