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The Myth of Mass Incarceration

Posted By: IvyLeague

The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/25/16 03:02 AM

The Myth of Mass Incarceration

Violent crime, not drugs, has driven imprisonment. And drug offenses usually are for dealing, not using.

By BARRY LATZER
Feb. 22, 2016


It has become a boogeyman in public discourse: “mass incarceration.” Both left and right, from Hillary Clinton to Rand Paul, agree that it must be ended. But a close examination of the data shows that U.S. imprisonment has been driven largely by violent crime—and thus significantly reducing incarceration may be impossible.

Less than one-half of 1% of the U.S. population is incarcerated, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), so “mass” is a bit of hyperbole. The proportion of African-Americans in prison, 1.2%, is high compared with whites (0.25%), but not in absolute terms.

There’s a lot of historical amnesia about the cause of prison expansion, a mistaken sense that it was all about drugs or race and had very little to do with serious crime. This ignores the facts. Between 1960 and 1990, the rate of violent crime in the U.S. surged by over 350%, according to FBI data, the biggest sustained buildup in the country’s history.

One major reason was that as crime rose the criminal-justice system caved. Prison commitments fell, as did time served per conviction. For every 1,000 arrests for serious crimes in 1970, 170 defendants went to prison, compared with 261 defendants five years earlier. Murderers released in 1960 had served a median 4.3 years, which wasn’t long to begin with. By 1970 that figure had dropped to 3.5 years.

Unquestionably, in the last decades of the 20th century more defendants than ever were sentenced to prison. But this was a direct result of changes in policy to cope with the escalation in violent crime. In the 1980s, after well over a decade of soaring crime, state incarceration rates jumped 107%.

When crime began to drop in the mid-1990s, so did the rise in incarceration rates. From 2000 to 2010, they increased a negligible 0.65%, and since 2005 they have been declining steadily, except for a slight uptick in 2013. The estimated 1.5 million prisoners at year-end 2014 is the smallest total prison population in the U.S. since 2005.

Those who talk of “mass incarceration” often blame the stiff drug sentences enacted during the crack-cocaine era, the late 1980s and early ’90s. But what pushed up incarceration rates, beginning in the mid-1970s, was primarily violent crime, not drug offenses.

The percentage of state prisoners in for drug violations peaked at only 22% in 1990. Further, drug convictions “explain only about 20% of prison growth since 1980,” according to a 2012 article by Fordham law professor John Pfaff, published in the Harvard Journal on Legislation.

Relatively few prisoners today are locked up for drug offenses. At the end of 2013 the state prison population was about 1.3 million. Fifty-three percent were serving time for violent crimes such as murder, robbery, rape or aggravated assault, according to the BJS. Nineteen percent were in for property crimes such as burglary, car theft or fraud. Another 11% had been convicted of weapons offenses, drunken driving or other public-order violations.

That leaves about 16%, or 208,000 people, incarcerated for drug crimes. Of those, less than a quarter were in for mere possession. The rest were in for trafficking and other crimes. Critics of “mass incarceration” often point to the federal prisons, where half of inmates, or about 96,000 people, are drug offenders. But 99.5% of them are traffickers. The notion that prisons are filled with young pot smokers, harmless victims of aggressive prosecution, is patently false.

The other line of attack is that the criminal justice system is racist because blacks are disproportionately imprisoned. About 35% of all prisoners, state and federal, are African-American, while blacks comprise about 13% of the U.S. population. But any explanation of this disparity must take blacks’ higher rates of offending into account.

From 1976 to 1995, blacks were identified by police as the perpetrators in more than half of homicides, according to FBI data compiled by the BJS. During this same period, individuals interviewed for the national crime-victim survey described robbery perpetrators as black more than 60% of the time. While the rate of black violent crime fell dramatically after the mid-1990s, it remains disturbingly high. From 2000 to 2014, African-Americans were murdered eight times as often as whites per capita, nearly always as a result of black-on-black assaults.

Such serious crimes are still the main driver of African-American incarceration. The latest BJS figures, from the end of 2013, show that 57% of blacks in state prison were convicted of violent crimes. Only 16% were in for drug crimes. Those numbers nearly match the figures for the state prison population overall.

Nor have blacks always served longer sentences than whites once incarcerated. In 1993, at the peak of the prison buildup, blacks and whites in state prison served identical terms, a median 12 months, for all offenses. For drug crimes, whites actually served slightly more time than blacks, 12 months to 11 months.

A growing consensus now supports making the criminal-justice system less punitive. But prison rates won’t drop dramatically unless serious crime declines further, which is unlikely. It certainly didn’t happen in 2015, when homicides in the 50 largest U.S. cities increased 17%. Nor are racial disparities likely to diminish so long as African-Americans commit a disproportionate number of violent crimes.

Mr. Latzer, an emeritus professor of criminal justice at the City University of New York, is the author of “The Rise and Fall of Violent Crime in America” (Encounter Books, 2016).

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-mass-incarceration-1456184736
Posted By: getthesenets

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/25/16 04:06 AM

Decent article,Ivy.

Odd that not once in the article are the "Rockefeller Drug Laws" mentioned in article by a professor at C.U.N.Y. Those were the laws imposing MANDATORY minimum sentences on drug possession and trafficking convictions. Since the heroin...later cocaine...later crack eras...the laws have surely swelled the state prisons with the guilty and those who might be innocent but strike plea bargains for fear of long sentence.

Criminals are criminals and nobody here will ever read me defending criminal acts. Poor people do have a disadvantage in the legal system though and are more likely to cop out and serve time for the same type of charge as a person on higher end of socio economic ladder.

Not mentioning the NY and other state mandatory sentences for possession is a GLARING omission. State prisons have locked up people to the point of overcrowding for possession. In fact, several states including your state UTAH, have scaled back these mand. min. laws and changed laws reducing what were once felonies to misdemeanors. Again, this is happening in different parts of the country....so not a simple side versus side issue.
Posted By: getthesenets

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/25/16 04:28 AM

2014 article about the proposed law change in Utah

http://fox13now.com/2014/10/22/drug-poss...ah-law-changes/

The idea had the backing of Utah Dept. of Corrections Executive Director Rollin Cook, who told FOX 13 he estimates as much as 25-percent of the prison population is there on drug possession.
Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/25/16 06:13 AM

This article is not politically correct and will piss off many.

Sounds accurate. Traffickers go to jail for drug possession after plea dealing down to save time and money for the state and risk of going to jail for much longer.
Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/25/16 06:28 AM

Oh, notice crime started to drop in the 90's.

This coincides with a theory that once welfare started paying for abortions(like they do in NY) it would lower crime.

Makes so much sense.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/25/16 07:28 AM

Originally Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker
Oh, notice crime started to drop in the 90's.

This coincides with a theory that once welfare started paying for abortions(like they do in NY) it would lower crime.

Makes so much sense.


Besides there being much better, less evil ways to lower crime, I don't think lower crime rates justify abortion at all.

Anyone who can watch just these animated videos, narrated by a former abortionist, of the "procedure" and not be sickened, outraged, and against it is frankly worthy of the same judgements abortionists and the women who choose to kill the child within them face.

The godless, secular left has done a masterful job at spinning this issue. It's not a BAD thing that women are killing their unborn children. It's a GOOD thing because they are exercising their "right to choose."

Look at how hard they fight against women being given the most info possible before having an abortion. Like seeing the child within them on an ultrasound or seeing videos like those below. Pro-abortion (that's what pro-choice is) liberals want it all behind closed doors, no facts out in the open. They'reall about pro-choice as long as it's an uninformed choice.

Look at NARAL Pro-Choice America's reaction to that Doritos ad during the Super Bowl. They were offended that it "humanized" the fetus. Are you kidding me?

Bottom line, people who support abortion on demand, which is basically what we have now, are soulless pieces of shit.

How's that for politically incorrect?

1st Trimester
https://youtu.be/5THDmys8z30

2nd Trimester
https://youtu.be/jgw4X7Dw_3k

3rd Trimester
https://youtu.be/r5Af8vIym2o
Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/25/16 08:36 AM

@Ivy League

I will not watch your videos.

My mind is made up. Abortion lowered crime in NYC. That's how I and many see it.
Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/25/16 08:36 AM

@Ivy League

I will not watch your videos.

My mind is made up. Abortion lowered crime in NYC. That's how I and many see it.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/25/16 05:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker
@Ivy League

I will not watch your videos.

My mind is made up. Abortion lowered crime in NYC. That's how I and many see it.


Of course you wont. That's how all pro-abortion people are. Out of sight, out of mind. To actually see the horrors of abortion - and the videos above are just animation - would force them to confront themselves, their selfishness, and their lack of humanity.
Posted By: olivant

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/25/16 06:06 PM

In the words of Baretta:

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime!
Posted By: cookcounty

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/26/16 05:54 PM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker
@Ivy League

I will not watch your videos.

My mind is made up. Abortion lowered crime in NYC. That's how I and many see it.


Of course you wont. That's how all pro-abortion people are. Out of sight, out of mind. To actually see the horrors of abortion - and the videos above are just animation - would force them to confront themselves, their selfishness, and their lack of humanity.




say that shit when somebody that should've been aborted robs you at gunpoint

that mothafucka shooting people in kalamazoo michigan should've been aborted
Posted By: getthesenets

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/27/16 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker
This article is not politically correct and will piss off many.

Sounds accurate. Traffickers go to jail for drug possession after plea dealing down to save time and money for the state and risk of going to jail for much longer.


Knick,

Your comment here is along the line of my views about Trump's success so so far.

Who are the "many" that will be pissed off by this article? Who? The Black members of GBB? The ones with liberal leanings?
I'm not pissed off.I've said several times here that the truth is the truth no matter how uncomfortable it makes people feel.

"Mass incarceration" slogan is ,in fact, BS. People decide to do crime and get locked up.I've always been consistent about that.

Once people speak the truth as they see it, it opens up room for discussion. Some are not interested in discussions though, just rants. Trump is EXPERTLY taking advantage of people who are tired of public figures tapdancing around issues. Trump rants at rallies, rants in debates,etc.

Question remains about whether he's interested in opening up frank dialogue about resolutions or whether he's just interested in ranting.

Go back and search the site when discussions like this go down. In a few instances, people who are "only telling the truth" when it comes to Black crimes stats got exposed for contradicting themselves when we post comments they've written here admiring or defending CONVICTED felons of other backgrounds against law enforcement.If they were consistent in their views about criminal ACTS people would take them seriously.
Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/28/16 02:51 AM

Thanks getthesenets.

So yeah, abortion for poor people, especially unwed girls, is effective for controlling crime regardless of race.

I believe more black babies are aborted than born in NYC. But that's misleading because I'm sure girls from places like Long Island and Westchester and upstate will travel in to the City for one.

I am of the believe that the high percentage of black abortions has helped put a dent in crime. And maybe it would get rid of some white trash too, but the Southern states don't really have abortion on demand like NY.

As for the white guy in Kalamazoo, these random white loner shooters are a problem. But they don't seem cultural.

In the black community, it's epidemic. So when a white male goes on a spree, we magnify the story to feel better because it's politically correct to offset the much more common problem. Black gun violence.
Posted By: BlackFamily

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/29/16 02:04 AM

Reminded me of a similar article to this : https://news.vice.com/article/how-missis...-justice-reform

@ Knickerbocker

"As for the white guy in Kalamazoo, these random white loner shooters are a problem. But they don't seem cultural.

In the black community, it's epidemic. So when a white male goes on a spree, we magnify the story to feel better because it's politically correct to offset the much more common problem. Black gun violence."

Gun violence is a common problem overall, not exclusively to 1 background. The media will portray whatever that brings viewers and have the tendency to reflect bias viewpoints.
Posted By: Faithful1

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/29/16 08:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker
Thanks getthesenets.

So yeah, abortion for poor people, especially unwed girls, is effective for controlling crime regardless of race.

I believe more black babies are aborted than born in NYC. But that's misleading because I'm sure girls from places like Long Island and Westchester and upstate will travel in to the City for one.

I am of the believe that the high percentage of black abortions has helped put a dent in crime. And maybe it would get rid of some white trash too, but the Southern states don't really have abortion on demand like NY.

As for the white guy in Kalamazoo, these random white loner shooters are a problem. But they don't seem cultural.

In the black community, it's epidemic. So when a white male goes on a spree, we magnify the story to feel better because it's politically correct to offset the much more common problem. Black gun violence.


I don't think killing babies or fetuses is the answer. One of the answers would be better parenting. Another is safer schools that kick out kids who act violently. A third is a lower level of community tolerance for aggressive behavior.

Also need to point out that guns aren't the only problem. Mob violence like beating up homeless people then posting it on Facebook, knocking people out by sucker-punching them in the back of the head, the acceptance of rape and burglary, etc. The current narrative of victimhood teaches young people to ignore the real problems and hate those who disagree with you. There was a time, before the mid-1960s, when most communities did not tolerate that garbage.
Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/29/16 09:54 AM

Originally Posted By: BlackFamily
Reminded me of a similar article to this : https://news.vice.com/article/how-missis...-justice-reform

@ Knickerbocker

"As for the white guy in Kalamazoo, these random white loner shooters are a problem. But they don't seem cultural.

In the black community, it's epidemic. So when a white male goes on a spree, we magnify the story to feel better because it's politically correct to offset the much more common problem. Black gun violence."

Gun violence is a common problem overall, not exclusively to 1 background. The media will portray whatever that brings viewers and have the tendency to reflect bias viewpoints.


Really? Overall problem? Look at Chicago alone. Already at 100 homicides, mostly black victims. They usually have 500 homicides a year but could hit 600 at this pace.

There probably aren't any cities or counties where 500 whites are the victim of a homicide.
Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/29/16 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: Faithful1
Originally Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker
Thanks getthesenets.

So yeah, abortion for poor people, especially unwed girls, is effective for controlling crime regardless of race.

I believe more black babies are aborted than born in NYC. But that's misleading because I'm sure girls from places like Long Island and Westchester and upstate will travel in to the City for one.

I am of the believe that the high percentage of black abortions has helped put a dent in crime. And maybe it would get rid of some white trash too, but the Southern states don't really have abortion on demand like NY.

As for the white guy in Kalamazoo, these random white loner shooters are a problem. But they don't seem cultural.

In the black community, it's epidemic. So when a white male goes on a spree, we magnify the story to feel better because it's politically correct to offset the much more common problem. Black gun violence.


I don't think killing babies or fetuses is the answer. One of the answers would be better parenting. Another is safer schools that kick out kids who act violently. A third is a lower level of community tolerance for aggressive behavior.

Also need to point out that guns aren't the only problem. Mob violence like beating up homeless people then posting it on Facebook, knocking people out by sucker-punching them in the back of the head, the acceptance of rape and burglary, etc. The current narrative of victimhood teaches young people to ignore the real problems and hate those who disagree with you. There was a time, before the mid-1960s, when most communities did not tolerate that garbage.


Thanks. We'll never agree. I think abortion lowers crime and hate to think what NYC would be like if minority babies, black in particular, weren't aborted at such high rates.

Naturally the priest in my local parish disagrees with me but I don't care anymore. Catholicism and Conservatism offer no better answers.
Posted By: BlackFamily

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/29/16 12:28 PM

That's why I said overall because for black communities ( including other non-white communities) it's a heavily dense neighborhoods in large cities. For whites, it's small communities and counties. More so headlines for our major cities because of the tourist attractions, history, and economy.

Overall nationally , it's a common problem.
Posted By: Faithful1

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/29/16 07:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker


Thanks. We'll never agree. I think abortion lowers crime and hate to think what NYC would be like if minority babies, black in particular, weren't aborted at such high rates.

Naturally the priest in my local parish disagrees with me but I don't care anymore. Catholicism and Conservatism offer no better answers.


Sure, abortion lowers crime. Hey, if you just kill everyone then you'll have no crime at all, so let's do that.
Posted By: cookcounty

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/29/16 10:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Boss_of_Knickerbocker
Originally Posted By: BlackFamily
Reminded me of a similar article to this : https://news.vice.com/article/how-missis...-justice-reform

@ Knickerbocker

"As for the white guy in Kalamazoo, these random white loner shooters are a problem. But they don't seem cultural.

In the black community, it's epidemic. So when a white male goes on a spree, we magnify the story to feel better because it's politically correct to offset the much more common problem. Black gun violence."

Gun violence is a common problem overall, not exclusively to 1 background. The media will portray whatever that brings viewers and have the tendency to reflect bias viewpoints.


Really? Overall problem? Look at Chicago alone. Already at 100 homicides, mostly black victims. They usually have 500 homicides a year but could hit 600 at this pace.

There probably aren't any cities or counties where 500 whites are the victim of a homicide.




chicago used to have way more than 500 or 600 murders so crime is actually down

inadequate schooling plays a major role in the crime in black communities

the government flooding the hood with drugs didn't help either
Posted By: Faithful1

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 02/29/16 10:39 PM

The government didn't flood the hood with drugs. That's a myth.
Posted By: Crash

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 03/02/16 05:16 PM

Ivy
I totally agree with you buddy. Mass incarceration is a total myth and defies both logic and facts.
Cookcounty
Inadequate schooling causes black violence? Really !!!! How about blacks having kids at young ages without being married and then not supervising their children. How about that for a reason for black violence!
The governement that floods the hood with drugs you are referring to must be the black chicago government of the black panthers.
Almost every male black entertainer today has to act like a gangbanger, god forbid he speaks using proper sentences.
Next time a black woman or guy from the hood complains about not having money, im going to tell him to take back all their tattoos, get a refund, and then spend the friggin money on their kids.
Oh shit, i forgot, i already pay for their kids with my tax dollars.
End the out of wedlock births !!!!!
Posted By: cookcounty

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 03/02/16 07:11 PM

@crash

better schools in the black community would lower crime for generations

the govt. already got caught flooding the hood with drugs....smh

there are probably more whites in your state on public aide than blacks
Posted By: Crash

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 03/02/16 09:45 PM

So the government floods the hood with drugs. Cmon, i am quite certain you dont believe that.
Schools may be part of the problem but the TRUE problem is the alarming amount of out of wedlock births in the black community. It really boils down to the disinegration of the black family. How many black woman have children with different men, not to mention as teenagers without education or any real skills. Why does the black community condone such aggregious behavior?
Every successful athlete or entertainer always thanks their mothers or grandmothers, where the frig are the fathers. If a famous black speaks using proper english and is educated, he is called " a sell out". What the frig kind of a culture is that. Having babies like they are pitbull puppies. Its like, get with the damn program already. We are tired of it.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 03/03/16 03:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Crash
So the government floods the hood with drugs. Cmon, i am quite certain you dont believe that.
Schools may be part of the problem but the TRUE problem is the alarming amount of out of wedlock births in the black community. It really boils down to the disinegration of the black family. How many black woman have children with different men, not to mention as teenagers without education or any real skills. Why does the black community condone such aggregious behavior?
Every successful athlete or entertainer always thanks their mothers or grandmothers, where the frig are the fathers. If a famous black speaks using proper english and is educated, he is called " a sell out". What the frig kind of a culture is that. Having babies like they are pitbull puppies. Its like, get with the damn program already. We are tired of it.


Please don't confuse cook county with the facts. They hurt his brain.
Posted By: Faithful1

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 03/03/16 06:28 AM

For whoever wants to know why the idea that the government flooded black communities with drugs, it comes from an investigated series by a reporter for the San Jose Mercury News in the late 1990s. The reporter was Gary Webb, and he claimed that the Nicaraguan Contras (anti-Communists) trafficked drugs in California with the knowledge and approval of the CIA. President Reagan supported the Contradoras/Contras because they were fighting the Sandinistas, who were the Communists. The Democrats didn't think the Communists were so bad so they cut off government funding by passing something called the Boland Amendment. So Reagan went around the Boland Amendment by raising private money to support the Contras.

Two Nicaraguans who were important in the Contras, Oscar Danilo Blandon and Norwin Meneses, who sold cocaine to Freeway Ricky Ross, who then sold them to the Crips. The CIA did work with Blandon and Meneses, but did not support their drug work. In fact Blandon was arrested by the FBI for drug trafficking, convicted, and then worked with the DEA to take down Ricky Ross! So Blandon received NO protection by the CIA. Sometimes the CIA has to work with bad people to get the bigger fish, like helping to take down a hostile government. That's part of their job.

Ricky Ross started selling cocaine for a teacher after high school, then made so much money he went on his own. The teacher had a middle man, but Ross dealt with the original suppliers, Blandon and Meneses, who sold a cheaper form of coke. They all made a lot of money. The key facts are that they operated out of Los Angeles via Nicaragua. The Nicaraguans did not deal in with other black communities. Ross was already a drug trafficker. The CIA did not protect the Nicaraguans. The government did not bring drugs to black communities. Ultimately, people in black communities who used crack did it of their own free will. No one put guns to their heads and made them smoke crack. They made their own choices.

Ross says that because the CIA looked the other way while Blandon sold cocaine that they are responsible. But working with a drug trafficker does not mean that the CIA approved of what he was doing. Also, it was not Blandon who sold crack and started the crack epidemic, but Ross. Ricky Ross started the crack epidemic because the people he was dealing to preferred it over PCP, which was the epidemic then.

Here is Ricky Ross interviewed by Reason magazine. It's interesting because it delves into the economics of Ross's criminal enterprise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9w3ql7hIG8

Gary Webb was demoted by the San Jose Mercury News for being sloppy and jumping to conclusions after other newspapers challenged him. He quit then wrote a book called "Deadly Alliance." He went to work as a state investigator until he was laid off, then for an alternative newspaper. Unable to meet his mortgage, he lost his house, became depressed and killed himself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb

Several investigations concluded that Webb's claims were exaggerated. Crack had already started showing up in Los Angeles, Miami, Houston and other places in 1981 when dealers created it to increase profits. Ross sold cocaine and the dealers he sold it to started converting it to rock to increase their own profits. Ross sold his low-priced coke all over the country. Blandon didn't sell it all over the country, Ross did. The claim that the government flooded black communities with drugs is lie (especially since the accusation is that the CIA spread cocaine -- not any other government agency and not other drugs -- and that one charge is false. No one in the CIA sold drugs, but a couple people working with the CIA did. So the claim is guilt by association, which is a logical fallacy.

Another guy who believes the government itself sold the drugs is conspiracy nut Alex Jones, who also believes that Bill Clinton used to have cocaine flown in at the Mena, Arkansas air port when he was governor.
Posted By: Dwalin2011

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 03/03/16 10:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Faithful1
Sometimes the CIA has to work with bad people to get the bigger fish, like helping to take down a hostile government. That's part of their job.

That may be part of their job, but morally this isn't justifiable. If a government is hostile to the USA, it doesn't mean it's "bad" by default and has to be taken down. By that logic, we can also say the mafia is doing their job too, because it's their life and traditions; the only thing that differentiates them from the secret services like the CIA is that they are not "official", but so what?

Originally Posted By: Faithful1

Ross says that because the CIA looked the other way while Blandon sold cocaine that they are responsible. But working with a drug trafficker does not mean that the CIA approved of what he was doing.

No one in the CIA sold drugs, but a couple people working with the CIA did. So the claim is guilt by association, which is a logical fallacy.

How can you be so sure the CIA didn't sell drugs? I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the secret services of all the countries commit crimes from time to time, sometimes out of the hypocritical reason of "strengthening their nation" and sometimes just to fill their pockets. Why should the CIA be an exception? I never thought anyone in this world seriously believed in the honesty of such institutions like the secret services, especially ones like the CIA that have much to do with politics, espionage and counter-espionage. Such things always depend from a point of view, because politicians and governments considered "bad" by the CIA may be considered at least "not so bad" by somebody else. Some people think the USA are "bad" and only aim at the world supremacy, but this imo is as much an exaggerated view as the view of the ones who support the CIA and the idea that all enemies of the USA have to be eliminated.

Don't know much about Gary Webb, but his articles about the alleged release of drug lord Carlos Lehder seemed pretty convincing to me. How do you know he really killed himself?
Posted By: thedudeabides87

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 03/03/16 11:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Faithful1
For whoever wants to know why the idea that the government flooded black communities with drugs, it comes from an investigated series by a reporter for the San Jose Mercury News in the late 1990s. The reporter was Gary Webb, and he claimed that the Nicaraguan Contras (anti-Communists) trafficked drugs in California with the knowledge and approval of the CIA. President Reagan supported the Contradoras/Contras because they were fighting the Sandinistas, who were the Communists. The Democrats didn't think the Communists were so bad so they cut off government funding by passing something called the Boland Amendment. So Reagan went around the Boland Amendment by raising private money to support the Contras.

Two Nicaraguans who were important in the Contras, Oscar Danilo Blandon and Norwin Meneses, who sold cocaine to Freeway Ricky Ross, who then sold them to the Crips. The CIA did work with Blandon and Meneses, but did not support their drug work. In fact Blandon was arrested by the FBI for drug trafficking, convicted, and then worked with the DEA to take down Ricky Ross! So Blandon received NO protection by the CIA. Sometimes the CIA has to work with bad people to get the bigger fish, like helping to take down a hostile government. That's part of their job.

Ricky Ross started selling cocaine for a teacher after high school, then made so much money he went on his own. The teacher had a middle man, but Ross dealt with the original suppliers, Blandon and Meneses, who sold a cheaper form of coke. They all made a lot of money. The key facts are that they operated out of Los Angeles via Nicaragua. The Nicaraguans did not deal in with other black communities. Ross was already a drug trafficker. The CIA did not protect the Nicaraguans. The government did not bring drugs to black communities. Ultimately, people in black communities who used crack did it of their own free will. No one put guns to their heads and made them smoke crack. They made their own choices.

Ross says that because the CIA looked the other way while Blandon sold cocaine that they are responsible. But working with a drug trafficker does not mean that the CIA approved of what he was doing. Also, it was not Blandon who sold crack and started the crack epidemic, but Ross. Ricky Ross started the crack epidemic because the people he was dealing to preferred it over PCP, which was the epidemic then.

Here is Ricky Ross interviewed by Reason magazine. It's interesting because it delves into the economics of Ross's criminal enterprise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9w3ql7hIG8

Gary Webb was demoted by the San Jose Mercury News for being sloppy and jumping to conclusions after other newspapers challenged him. He quit then wrote a book called "Deadly Alliance." He went to work as a state investigator until he was laid off, then for an alternative newspaper. Unable to meet his mortgage, he lost his house, became depressed and killed himself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb

Several investigations concluded that Webb's claims were exaggerated. Crack had already started showing up in Los Angeles, Miami, Houston and other places in 1981 when dealers created it to increase profits. Ross sold cocaine and the dealers he sold it to started converting it to rock to increase their own profits. Ross sold his low-priced coke all over the country. Blandon didn't sell it all over the country, Ross did. The claim that the government flooded black communities with drugs is lie (especially since the accusation is that the CIA spread cocaine -- not any other government agency and not other drugs -- and that one charge is false. No one in the CIA sold drugs, but a couple people working with the CIA did. So the claim is guilt by association, which is a logical fallacy.

Another guy who believes the government itself sold the drugs is conspiracy nut Alex Jones, who also believes that Bill Clinton used to have cocaine flown in at the Mena, Arkansas air port when he was governor.


Michael Ruppert an ex cop also said the CIA sold drugs even famously confronted the CIA director at a town hall meeting. I don't say I agree or disagree with the this stuff, because if they did sell tracks would be covered and individuals involved would be discredited, also anyone involved in the crack game might be looking for a scape goat. We have seen FBI agents who work with bad guys so of one agent in the CIA did work with Ross that doesn't mean the CIA as a whole sold crack.

Posted By: Crash

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 03/03/16 12:53 PM

Very informative faithful1

News flash, blacks were doing drugs , especially heroin , well before Reagan supported the contra's.
Posted By: BlackFamily

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 03/03/16 06:33 PM

@F1

Well spoken. Your definitely on point with your answers and give you credit ( and a host of others) for being well rounded.

Basically the drug trade can't sustain itself without a clientele. Cocaine, Marijuana, Opiums have all been in our country since its foundation (before and after of course). The policies and law just change over these years due to underground market, crimes, foreign wars, and other factors as well. This isn't much of a conspiracy against blacks nor any specific ethnic background problems since everybody is involved either as providers or consumers.
Posted By: Faithful1

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 03/05/16 01:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Dwalin2011
Originally Posted By: Faithful1
Sometimes the CIA has to work with bad people to get the bigger fish, like helping to take down a hostile government. That's part of their job.

That may be part of their job, but morally this isn't justifiable. If a government is hostile to the USA, it doesn't mean it's "bad" by default and has to be taken down. By that logic, we can also say the mafia is doing their job too, because it's their life and traditions; the only thing that differentiates them from the secret services like the CIA is that they are not "official", but so what?

Originally Posted By: Faithful1

Ross says that because the CIA looked the other way while Blandon sold cocaine that they are responsible. But working with a drug trafficker does not mean that the CIA approved of what he was doing.

No one in the CIA sold drugs, but a couple people working with the CIA did. So the claim is guilt by association, which is a logical fallacy.

How can you be so sure the CIA didn't sell drugs? I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the secret services of all the countries commit crimes from time to time, sometimes out of the hypocritical reason of "strengthening their nation" and sometimes just to fill their pockets. Why should the CIA be an exception? I never thought anyone in this world seriously believed in the honesty of such institutions like the secret services, especially ones like the CIA that have much to do with politics, espionage and counter-espionage. Such things always depend from a point of view, because politicians and governments considered "bad" by the CIA may be considered at least "not so bad" by somebody else. Some people think the USA are "bad" and only aim at the world supremacy, but this imo is as much an exaggerated view as the view of the ones who support the CIA and the idea that all enemies of the USA have to be eliminated.

Don't know much about Gary Webb, but his articles about the alleged release of drug lord Carlos Lehder seemed pretty convincing to me. How do you know he really killed himself?


First, the CIA has no official policy of dealing drugs. What individual agents do for any agency on their own time is up to them. I used to work for the state of California, and from time to time other state employees will break laws. It doesn't mean the state had anything to do with those crimes. If a Sears employee sells drugs, does that mean Sears is responsible?

Second, there's no evidence that individual CIA agents (not ex-agents) distributed drugs. If I am mistaken and you think there were then please supply the names and evidence.

Third, I didn't claim that governments hostile to the USA are necessarily bad and had to be taken down, but often the two go hand-in-hand. Taking down governments often backfires, so I don't recommend it. But if the president and Congress orders it, then it's part of the job.

Fourth, I don't have PERSONAL knowledge that Webb killed himself. I wasn't there and didn't do my own forensic investigation, but based on the available evidence, he did. Likewise, I don't have personal knowledge that Abraham Lincoln ever lived. I never met him and there could be a giant conspiracy to make me believe that he did, but I don't think that's very likely.

Fifth, some governments are bad, not just bad to us. North Korea is bad. Iran is bad. Hamas is bad. Islamic State is bad. They are intrinsically bad because they are based on evil ideologies and treat their own people in an evil manner and cause problems for others.
Posted By: Faithful1

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 03/05/16 02:07 AM

Thanks Crash and BF. I think we need to remember that back in the late 1800s cocaine was sold in sodas (Coke and Pepsi anyone?). People have always done drugs, but people have never been FORCED to take them. If someone poured out several pounds of the purest, best cocaine in the universe on to my dining room table and told me to take as much as I wanted, I wouldn't take any because it doesn't interest me.

To get back to the original topic of mass incarceration, let's look at the question in a different way. Let's say there was MORE mass incarceration and it was done properly (only the guilty are convicted and the penalty matches the crime). What would this mean? More criminal off the street. It seems that the communities suffering the most from crime would also BENEFIT the most from mass incarceration. Wouldn't the law-abiding be better off without criminals preying on them? Especially those who struggle to make ends meet who can't afford to have their cars stolen or homes burglarized. If schools ejected bullies, wouldn't that make schools safer, and wouldn't that make the kids who attend them safer? If more criminal were in prison, then businesses wouldn't be afraid to open up in poorer communities and more jobs would be created. I think we all need to re-examine our beliefs on this.

We need "get-tough" on crime policies, but they have to be fair and accurate. They also have to be moral and require community support. Schools have to suspend and expel bullies and thugs. Schools have to be safe. More cops need to work in bad neighborhoods, and local communities need their own armed and deputized citizen patrols. I don't agree with the Nation of Islam, but if the Nation of Islam started patrolling Chicago with legal carry permits I bet Chicago would be much safer. If churches and good citizens did the same, even better. The feds and/or states also need to audit local high-crime government to see if city and county leaders aren't stealing government money meant to help citizens ends up in their pockets. Several Detroit leaders stole thousands meant for poor schools that needed the money. A city can't thrive if it's run by crooks. At the same time, citizens shouldn't knowingly vote in crooks, like they did in Washington DC (Marion Berry). I would also support decriminalizing all drugs for home use (not at work, not in school and not while driving). Police need to focus on violent crimes and property crimes, not usage "crimes."
Posted By: getthesenets

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 07/29/16 10:22 AM

Originally Posted By: getthesenets

Not mentioning the NY and other state mandatory sentences for possession is a GLARING omission. State prisons have locked up people to the point of overcrowding for possession. In fact, several states including your state UTAH, have scaled back these mand. min. laws and changed laws reducing what were once felonies to misdemeanors. Again, this is happening in different parts of the country....so not a simple side versus side issue.



2014 article about the proposed law change in Utah

http://fox13now.com/2014/10/22/drug-poss...ah-law-changes/

The idea had the backing of Utah Dept. of Corrections Executive Director Rollin Cook, who told FOX 13 he estimates as much as 25-percent of the prison population is there on drug possession.


yeah, Ivy this is one of those cases where you post something , I comment and challenge some of it....using YOUR state as a recent example of people changing their views about these laws.

I'm the second poster in this thread....yet if you addressed what I wrote in the 2nd and 3rd posts in this thread I must have missed it.

The mandatory minimums were reversed/abolished in YOUR state.

http://www.crj.org/news/entry/utah-passes-epic-criminal-justice-reform-legislation

I brought it up....posted article about it and you made the choice to not comment.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 07/29/16 04:17 PM

Originally Posted By: getthesenets
Originally Posted By: getthesenets

Not mentioning the NY and other state mandatory sentences for possession is a GLARING omission. State prisons have locked up people to the point of overcrowding for possession. In fact, several states including your state UTAH, have scaled back these mand. min. laws and changed laws reducing what were once felonies to misdemeanors. Again, this is happening in different parts of the country....so not a simple side versus side issue.



2014 article about the proposed law change in Utah

http://fox13now.com/2014/10/22/drug-poss...ah-law-changes/

The idea had the backing of Utah Dept. of Corrections Executive Director Rollin Cook, who told FOX 13 he estimates as much as 25-percent of the prison population is there on drug possession.


yeah, Ivy this is one of those cases where you post something , I comment and challenge some of it....using YOUR state as a recent example of people changing their views about these laws.

I'm the second poster in this thread....yet if you addressed what I wrote in the 2nd and 3rd posts in this thread I must have missed it.

The mandatory minimums were reversed/abolished in YOUR state.

http://www.crj.org/news/entry/utah-passes-epic-criminal-justice-reform-legislation

I brought it up....posted article about it and you made the choice to not comment.


Again, I don't know what you're looking for. If I had just posted my own view or opinion on the issue, rather than an article, you may have a point. But what does you taking issue with the article have to do with me? I'm not sure the article's findings apply across the board in every state but I found it interesting considering how often it's claimed that our prisons are full of people who had a little bit of weed on them or drug users who just need help.
Posted By: Toodoped

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 07/29/16 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
our prisons are full of people who had a little bit of weed on them or drug users who just need help.


This is the main problem in most countries where weed is considered highly illegal. I know one country where if you get caught with 1 gram of weed, the government will prosecute you with using, production and selling of narcotics with immediately putting you in custody for 30 days until trial
Posted By: cookcounty

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 07/30/16 07:02 PM

@ivyleague


Are you really clueless to the fact that our own government lets drugs into the country
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 07/31/16 08:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Toodoped
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
our prisons are full of people who had a little bit of weed on them or drug users who just need help.


This is the main problem in most countries where weed is considered highly illegal. I know one country where if you get caught with 1 gram of weed, the government will prosecute you with using, production and selling of narcotics with immediately putting you in custody for 30 days until trial


Alabama has weed laws similar to some of these countries. That state is going to get left behind as America moves into the 21st century. They might as well just make it a confederate state, and then Hillary can build a wall around it.
Posted By: Footreads

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 07/31/16 09:31 AM

Hillary hates walls
Posted By: alicecooper

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 08/24/16 02:35 AM

Kinda off topic but still related the DOJ itself admits about 10% of those incarcerated in America are innocent.
Posted By: helenwheels

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 08/24/16 02:45 AM

Originally Posted By: alicecooper
Kinda off topic but still related the DOJ itself admits about 10% of those incarcerated in America are innocent.


A statistic that should send a chill down the spine of any American citizen.

Think about it. Based on our current prison population thats about 220,000 people. ~Shudders~
Posted By: alicecooper

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 08/24/16 03:06 AM

Dont forget everyone on probation and parole
Posted By: helenwheels

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 08/24/16 03:08 AM

Great point. That effectively more than doubles the number. JFC. Land of the free...
Posted By: getthesenets

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/06/16 12:55 AM

President of the Philippines snubbed and insulted Obama, so now the press is highlighting the measures that he's taking to stop drug trade in his country.

http://time.com/4478954/philippines-rodrigo-duterte-drug-war-vigilante-killing-deaths/

Allegedly over 2,400 suspected users and dealers killed in less than three months.
Posted By: Faithful1

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/06/16 07:02 AM

Originally Posted By: helenwheels
Originally Posted By: alicecooper
Kinda off topic but still related the DOJ itself admits about 10% of those incarcerated in America are innocent.


A statistic that should send a chill down the spine of any American citizen.

Think about it. Based on our current prison population thats about 220,000 people. ~Shudders~


I thought you were one of the fact-checkers around here. Several searches did not show the Justice Dept. coming up with any percentage of innocent people in prison. According to the Innocence Project it's between 2.3 and 5% (which is still bad) who are innocent. In 2014 Vice magazine estimated about a maximum of 120,000, which is a little more than 5%. Again, still bad, but not as bad as 10%.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:j0S_ZGoWEskJ:www.innocenceproject.org/contact/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

https://news.vice.com/article/why-are-there-up-to-120000-innocent-people-in-us-prisons
Posted By: helenwheels

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/06/16 12:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Faithful1


I thought you were one of the fact-checkers around here.


I didn't get my fact checking paycheck from the mods this month, so I'm on strike.

and yes, 2.5% or 5% is bad enough.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/06/16 04:38 PM

Originally Posted By: getthesenets
President of the Philippines snubbed and insulted Obama, so now the press is highlighting the measures that he's taking to stop drug trade in his country.

http://time.com/4478954/philippines-rodrigo-duterte-drug-war-vigilante-killing-deaths/

Allegedly over 2,400 suspected users and dealers killed in less than three months.


Two reasons to like the President of the Philippines.
Posted By: getthesenets

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/06/16 05:14 PM

Ivy,

I'll remember your comments the next time you feign patriotism. Foreign leader makes a vulgar comment about YOUR president, and you're fine with that.

I'll also remember this the next time you claim being about law and order. From what I read, people are being rounded up and killed without trials, hearings or anything. That sounds like the Gestapo to me.
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/06/16 05:20 PM

A lot of people who claim to be about law and order are really just about order.
Posted By: gangstereport

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/06/16 06:14 PM

Originally Posted By: getthesenets
Ivy,

I'll remember your comments the next time you feign patriotism. Foreign leader makes a vulgar comment about YOUR president, and you're fine with that.

I'll also remember this the next time you claim being about law and order. From what I read, people are being rounded up and killed without trials, hearings or anything. That sounds like the Gestapo to me.





+1

most of the people he is killing are small time dealers who come from the slums there is people nearly starving out there very high levels of poverty alot of these people are just trying to get out.

He has also allegedly used it to kill political opponents people are not given a fair trial and alot of the big time drug traffickers for some reason have not been targeted. There has been a huge increase in murders as drug dealers become more violent and a terrorist attack since this guy has come into power.

Also these guys are one of the countrys the US has invested alot in this guy is an idiot.

And ivy how can you agree with 18year olds being executed for dealing a small amount of drugs and you know what this whole program has failed the amount of overdoses have not decreased people are still dealing and the big drug traffickers have not been target. Apparently there has been investigation showing the police have started running there own drug operations and anyone who does not work for them they just simply kill the police out there is extremely corrupt half the dealers are the police themselves.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/06/16 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: getthesenets
Ivy,

I'll remember your comments the next time you feign patriotism. Foreign leader makes a vulgar comment about YOUR president, and you're fine with that.

I'll also remember this the next time you claim being about law and order. From what I read, people are being rounded up and killed without trials, hearings or anything. That sounds like the Gestapo to me.





I wasn't aware I had to defend the current schmuck in the White House at every turn to be patriotic.

And compare the drug problem in the Philippines and the US. Enough said.

Originally Posted By: gangstereport

And ivy how can you agree with 18year olds being executed for dealing a small amount of drugs and you know what this whole program has failed the amount of overdoses have not decreased people are still dealing and the big drug traffickers have not been target. Apparently there has been investigation showing the police have started running there own drug operations and anyone who does not work for them they just simply kill the police out there is extremely corrupt half the dealers are the police themselves.


I'm all for executing drug traffickers, big or small. People whine about the scourge of drugs but aren't willing to do what it takes to stop it. You can either wipe the scum off the earth, legalize drugs and only increase the amount of addicts in society, or continue with half measures like we've been for decades.
Posted By: getthesenets

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/06/16 08:35 PM

Ivy,

If a relative of yours gets arrested for possession and you get a call about it, it's safe to say that you will use your contacts and resources to bail them out and help them fight the charge.


Lock up all the drug dealers/users...until the day it hits home. Then it will be about "compassion" and "second chances"
Posted By: SoCalGangs

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/06/16 08:42 PM

Legalize all drugs and treat it as a medical issue and not a criminal issue.
Posted By: BlackFamily

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/06/16 08:48 PM

I actually agree to a certain extent on executing dealers , just the wholesale distributors. They're the ones that is supplying the entire country.
Posted By: cookcounty

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/06/16 10:44 PM

@ivyleague

you do realize if the USA executed drug dealers that govt. agents would die

half of our doctors would die because they're "legal" drug dealers

god knows how many children are being abused in utah/northwest USA

yet you're concerned with every thing black
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/07/16 04:41 AM

Originally Posted By: getthesenets
Ivy,

If a relative of yours gets arrested for possession and you get a call about it, it's safe to say that you will use your contacts and resources to bail them out and help them fight the charge.


Lock up all the drug dealers/users...until the day it hits home. Then it will be about "compassion" and "second chances"


Just about every time this subject comes up someone will say what you just said- "Wait till it happens to someone you know." Well, it hasn't happened and it wont. So spare me your hypothetical strawman scenarios.


Originally Posted By: SoCalGangs
Legalize all drugs and treat it as a medical issue and not a criminal issue.


Then we get what we've gotten with legal alcohol and tobacco which do more damage than all the illegal drugs combined because of their availability. Now you want to legalize things like meth or heroin?

Originally Posted By: cookcounty
@ivyleague

you do realize if the USA executed drug dealers that govt. agents would die

half of our doctors would die because they're "legal" drug dealers

god knows how many children are being abused in utah/northwest USA

yet you're concerned with every thing black


I don't know why you keep bringing up children being abused in Utah or whatever. It's like you're alluding to something but don't know how to say it because you don't know what you're talking about. And we're talking about drug traffickers in general, not just black ones. So, as usual, you're just babbling nonsense. Go stand in the corner, cook.
Posted By: SoCalGangs

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/07/16 04:53 AM

What has happened with alcohol and tobacco is a hell of a lot better than what's happening on the black market with drugs made illegal. Beer companies don't go to war with each other and settle disputes with violence.

The war on drugs, is really just a war on people and the market itself. More specifically a war on people's choices about their own bodies, and not through persuasion or medical intervention but through force. The ends don't justify the means.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/07/16 05:32 AM

Originally Posted By: SoCalGangs
What has happened with alcohol and tobacco is a hell of a lot better than what's happening on the black market with drugs made illegal. Beer companies don't go to war with each other and settle disputes with violence.

The war on drugs, is really just a war on people and the market itself. More specifically a war on people's choices about their own bodies, and not through persuasion or medical intervention but through force. The ends don't justify the means.


First, it's because the war on drugs isn't being fought the right way. It's a half-measure approach destined to fail from the start. That's my point.

Second, if people who choose to use drugs were only impacting themselves, you might have a point. But we all know that's not the case.
Posted By: SoCalGangs

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/07/16 05:42 AM

Well, you're right and you're atleast consistent. If the government started to kill a lot of people, drug suppliers and all, it might actually work. I think that's a horrible totalitarian approach that I could never support but yeah it could put stop to much of the drug use.
Posted By: Faithful1

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/07/16 06:18 AM

Wonder how it will work out in the Philippines where President Duterte is encouraging vigilantes to kill drug dealers. I think Singapore has low rate of illicit drug use since they cane people there. For major traffickers they have the death penalty.
Posted By: mightyhealthy

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/07/16 04:06 PM

Ivy wants to ban all drugs and executes everyone who uses them. He's completely off the spectrum on this. What he says really doesn't matter.
Posted By: IvyLeague

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/08/16 06:47 AM

Originally Posted By: mightyhealthy
Ivy wants to ban all drugs and executes everyone who uses them. He's completely off the spectrum on this. What he says really doesn't matter.


To be clear, it's more about executing drug traffickers as they are the ones who profit from the trade and use violence to achieve it. The end result being the supply of drugs would largely shrivel up and deprive the addicts of their fix.
Posted By: mightyhealthy

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/08/16 05:59 PM

Define drug trafficker.
Posted By: mightyhealthy

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/08/16 06:01 PM

It's 2016, you want to execute hundreds of thousands of people a year, it's absolutely insane. No other way to describe it.
Posted By: mightyhealthy

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/08/16 06:01 PM

This include weed?
Posted By: helenwheels

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/08/16 06:14 PM

Weed???

Molon labe wink
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/08/16 06:48 PM

Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
To be clear, it's more about executing drug traffickers as they are the ones who profit from the trade and use violence to achieve it. The end result being the supply of drugs would largely shrivel up and deprive the addicts of their fix.


This go for pharmaceutical drugs too?
Posted By: alicecooper

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/09/16 03:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Faithful1
Originally Posted By: helenwheels
Originally Posted By: alicecooper
Kinda off topic but still related the DOJ itself admits about 10% of those incarcerated in America are innocent.


A statistic that should send a chill down the spine of any American citizen.

Think about it. Based on our current prison population thats about 220,000 people. ~Shudders~


I thought you were one of the fact-checkers around here. Several searches did not show the Justice Dept. coming up with any percentage of innocent people in prison. According to the Innocence Project it's between 2.3 and 5% (which is still bad) who are innocent. In 2014 Vice magazine estimated about a maximum of 120,000, which is a little more than 5%. Again, still bad, but not as bad as 10%.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:j0S_ZGoWEskJ:www.innocenceproject.org/contact/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

https://news.vice.com/article/why-are-there-up-to-120000-innocent-people-in-us-prisons


Read this

http://caught.net/innoc.htm

At work don't have time to find the DOJ report think it was 2 or 3 years ago they released it
Posted By: alicecooper

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/11/16 02:08 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Dookhan
Posted By: cookcounty

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/11/16 11:05 PM

Originally Posted By: OakAsFan
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
To be clear, it's more about executing drug traffickers as they are the ones who profit from the trade and use violence to achieve it. The end result being the supply of drugs would largely shrivel up and deprive the addicts of their fix.


This go for pharmaceutical drugs too?



Ivy is stuck n the early 90s

Prescription pills are the biggest drug problem nowadays

He thinks we should kill half the govt and doctors
Posted By: OakAsFan

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/12/16 01:19 AM

A few years ago a high ranking DEA official was on 60 Minutes. He was asked what would come of his agency if people voted to legalize drugs. He responded with something like, "we're not surrendering". If anyone wants to know what group of people are the biggest threat to freedom.
Posted By: getthesenets

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/28/16 02:42 PM

Documentary about Oxycontin industry in America

THE OXYCONTIN EXPRESS




First time I ever heard of Oxy was when that "tough on crime" hypocrite,Rush Limbaugh, was busted for possession years ago.
Posted By: mightyhealthy

Re: The Myth of Mass Incarceration - 09/30/16 02:36 PM

Ivy, you should move to the Philippines. You'd be in paradise.
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