Suicide Bombing Grandmother

Suicide bomber identified as grandmother
JABALYA, Gaza, Nov. 24 (UPI) -- A Gaza suicide bomber who detonated a bomb near Israeli troops has been identified as the first grandmother to carry out such an attack.

Fatma Omar A-Najar, who died carrying out the attack Thursday, was the mother of nine children and a grandmother to more than 40, Ha'aretz reported Friday.

The newspaper said Najar, a widow, had visited with her children Thursday morning and left her home around noon without telling her family where she was going.

"A martyr's death is permitted for all, women and men." Najar's son, Jihad, said after the attack.

"She couldn't remain indifferent to the occupation: the destruction, the death, the invasions of Gaza, all of these pushed her to carry out an 'act of sacrifice,'" he said.

"She participated in women's marches in Beit Hanoun to protect the militants in Nasser mosque, and participated in many Hamas activities," he said. "She brought great honor to us and the homeland. She connected all of us to the struggle."

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"She brought great honor to us and the homeland."

Is this guy kidding me with that statement? His grandmother just blew herself up in and attempt to kill others and he looks upon her act of terrorism as bringing honor to his family? Talk about a sick and twisted family.



Don Cardi

There really are people over there that think this way (honor to die for what they believe). The sooner our leaders here in the U.S. realize that, the sooner we'll be better to deal with the situation over there.

Maybe she went to get her 72 virgins

Well, Jews used to blow themselves up and were considered when they took Palestine, so why can't it work the other way around?

Anyone who blows themselves up in an attempt to take as many others with them as possible is not wired straight, IMO. It doesn't matter what race or religion they are.

SC's right. The sooner we strategize with that in mind, the better.

People blowing themselves up is not the cause of the problem, it is a symptom

I agree SC. I've said many times in past discussions that our leaders may be approaching this with the wrong strategy. The problem is what IS the right answer? How do we deal with the problem of people who are willing to blow themselves up? These kinds of barbarians are causing problems all over the world.


Don Cardi

People fight and die all the time for what they believe in whether what they believe in is right or wrong. If Palestinians don't want to accomplish their goal of a Palestinian homeland through negotiation, then let them fight for it. If that includes blowing themselves up, the so be it.

The tragedy is that the Palestinians are relatively uneducated and deprived of any substantive polemic that fairly represents both sides. In other words, they don't have substantive knowledge of alternatives to violence. When I was in Vietnam I never interrogated a Viet Cong that could talk intelligently about comparative economic and poitical systems. They were fighting white skinned invaders that they couldn't tell from the French and for their land. That's all they knew.

Its not that they're blowing themselves up. That's a symptom of the problem. The US doesn't have to learn how to deal with people who blow themselves up. That's not the issue.

The issue is why these people blow themselves up. What caused this woman to blow herself up?

That's the issue that must be addressed, not learning how to deal with suicide bombers.

They blow themselves up because they think that will somehow bring the emergence of a Palestinian state that much closaer. On the other hand, they may feel helpless and that they just want to destroy whoever they see as the enemy and they are willing to be killed to do so. I don' think there is much figuring to it. Of course, once a Palestinian state is achieved, that doesn't necessarily end things. Some Palestinians believe that all the land occupied by Israel is their land. So, the bombings will go on.

Olivant, I think that we have a pretty good idea as to why these people blow themselves up, as you yourself have made some very valid points as to the reason that they do these things.

I believe that it is a combination of uneducation, as you correctly pointed out, and brainwashing fanatacism that causes these people to carry out these acts of terrorism. Most of them have been brainwashed by the fanatical extremists who advocate the destruction of the western world. These extremists have convinced these people that acts of terrorism are good in the eyes of their God. These people believe this rhetoric and many of them are poor and uneducated people who are easily brainwashed by these extremist fanatics.

So the issue here really isn't why they blow themselves up, but rather an issue of how we stop them from blowing themselves up. What do you think can be done to convince these people that blowing themselves up is not the answer to what they are really trying to acheive? Does the western world need to educate these people in some way? Do we start out by ridding the world of the extremist fanatics that convince these people that suicide bombing is an act of honor? What is the answer? What's your opinion?



Don Cardi

You stop them from blowing themselves up by understanding where they are coming from, not throwing western ideas at them.

They're human beings, not barbarians. Palestinians got the shaft. That's a fact.

You're pushing an extremist agenda also, but from the opposite end DC.

To stop them from blowing themselves up, they need basic human respect, even though some people think that Palestinians are less than human. Because that's what a barbarian is by definition- less human than the "civilized" world.

In order to stop them, people need to understand them

To use a phrase of Don Vito's, you can't reason with them. The ideology is so ingrained, drilled into them from youth, that it's impossible to change their mind. The destruction of human life, ANY human life, is wrong, IMO. Be it by suicide bombing or by any other means. I agree that trying to change that way of thinking to what we consider "right" is impossible. However, unless they would try to understand us, how can we try to understand them?

That's not the way too look at it.

You, personally, did not choose to be born in America. Palestinians did not choose to be born in a rat hole like Palestine.

They're obviously upset that their ancestors had they're land stolen by the west.

It was stolen. Many people who deplore what Palestinians do forget that Jews did the same things back in the 40's.

They're born into a crappy place that was made even more crappy by the UN. Where is the UN located? The United States.

So, logically, the UN deprived them of their homeland and the UN is headquartered in the US and the US is a founding member of the UN...

So, logically, they don't like the US. That's not even including all the bad foreign policies the US has used in the region, which just made things worse.

The simple solution is to stop propping up Israel while condemning Syria and Iran for propping up Palestine. Its hypocritical.

I say the US should stay the hell out of it and let the people in the region figure out their own problems

Difficult, not possible, as his son said. And it's not as if we've tried, is it?

The only well documented terrorist(?) bombing of a civilian target by the Israelis during the 40s was the bombing of the King David hotel. However,that hotel was also being used by the British as a military facility. The Israelis did not blow themselves up and they did not target civilians and they did not use women, and they certainly did not use grandmothers.

The Israelis have as much claim to Palestine as anyone else. Israel is a democracy. Even Turkey and Egypt are only erstwhile democracies while Syria, Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia, the Emirates (need I go on) are dictatorships or oligarchies almost since time immemorial. So not only is my money on Israel but my support goes to Israel also.

As far as a solution goes: Don Corleone believed that a man has only one destiny; I believe that some problems cannot be solved and this may be one. The only progress the US can make in the Middle East will come from continuing to support Israel and doing what it did about Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union - keep imbuing Middle Eastern inhabitants with western ideas about democracy, civil rights and civil liberties, government of the people, by the people, and for the people, free markets, the sanctity of life, and the use of government to enhance human existence, not constrain it.

Human beings don't go around blowing themselves up in an attempt to kill innocents and civilians. Human beings don't sell there kids to extremists so that they can become suicide bombers. Those kinds of acts are the acts of a barbarian mentality.




That's not fact, it's opinion.




Human respect? How many times have human beings attempted to broker peace treaties and deals on their behalf. Yet they refuse to show any repect to humnaity as a whole. There is no room for giving human respect to people that refuse it whenever it has been offered.





Democracy is an extremist agenda? Have we pushed an extremist agenda by blowing up innocents, children and civilians through the use of suicide bombing tactics?





See Olivants response to this falsehood that you insist on repeating everytime this kind of an issue arises.





I say that the U.S. should continue to back Israel because the Palestinians have never been able to figure out their own problems. Instead they've blamed everyone else for their problems but themselves. This is a people that elects known terrorists and terrorist supporters to lead them. No civilized nation should ever stand by and allow a terrorist nation to threaten a democracy.

They're animals anyway, so let them lose their souls.



Don Cardi

"Maybe so--but it occured to me. The soldiers are paid to fight--the rebels aren't."


"What does that tell you....?"

My compliments to ALL those here for arguing this in an adult, intelligent manner.

(The "Godfather" references are an added bonus).

Human beings do blow themselves up DC.

Palestinians didn't get the shaft? How about the fact most of them are living in refugee communities that are now 60 years old. Sounds like the shaft to me.

The US continues to kill people with no respect for human life. Ever since after WWII, every major action the US has been involved in has turned into a pit of money and death with no positive results.

You're extremist agenda is evident in your posts. You obviously do not take the issue seriously. You refer to them as "barbarians." I don't need to explain this

I'm not talking just about Jewish suicide bombers. I'm talking about the terrorist attacks they committed in general.

Palestinians did have their own problems figured out until the US backed an aggressor and all the native Palestinians were shit on by foreign nationals pouring out of Europe after the war. So the use of "never" is misleading.

Palestinians have more claim than Israelis. Israelis are mostly decedents of foreign nationals that invaded the territory. Their invasion never would have succeeded without US and UK aid.

Its a foreign government that does not belong there. Did the Palestinians deserve their fate at the hands of western powers? Hell no.

This would be like Canadians forcing an armed settlement in Texas just because they wanted to. Texans would bitch, but the Canadians would hold on in a BS way.

It is unfortunate that Double-J is no longer with us. He could have surely directed this debate in a more fruitful manner

You need to do some research and get your facts straight. First of all, Jews are Palestinians. Their ethnic ancestry and habitation in Israel goes back to Biblical times along with alot of other peoples such as the Caanites, Moabites, Ammonites, etc.. It was the Chaldeans who deported most of the Jews from Israel to the east in 586 BC. Since before 1948, they have been returning home. You may remember that Mohammad and his followers came from the Arabian peninsula, not Palestine. It was they that captured Jerusalem in 638 AD, hardly natives.

There are over 1 million arabs in Israel, almost 4 million in the West Bank, and over 2 million in the Gaza. Their ancestry is largely Seljuk originating in the Steppes of central asia. So, you might want to be careful about attributing origins.

Cardi's points are well taken.

More native than the European Jews.

You're confusing "Israeli" with "Israelite"

They both are Semitic people. They are not both Palestinian.

You may also want to be careful on confusing "Israeli" with "Israelite" which any historian will tell you are two different groups of people that happen to be Jewish. Certainly, there were Jews of Greek or Roman descent and converts. They were not "Israelites" even though their descendants are "Israeli"

EDIT- Palestinians converted to Islam. The religion may not be native, but the people are

Yes, and when Israel gained control of the Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank and the Golan Heights during the six day war of 1967, many blond haired, blue eyed 'Israelis' ran across the border to reclaim their homeland.

Not human beings by my definition. I guess that's where you and I differ. You seem to accept this type of behavior as a normal act of a human being. I don't. My feeling is that anyone who is willing to blow themselves up in an attempt to kill innocent civilians, children, etc. should not be treated as a human being.




Really? Care to give us some examples? The only one that I'll give you on that is Vietnam. But I do not see where any other conflict that the U.S. has been involved in has turned into one that has not produced postive results.





Interesting thing to say. What have I said or done that would qualify me as an extremist? Have I said that we should Nuke the bastards? Have I said that we should send our own suicide bombers into their communities to wipe out their woman and children? All I have actually done here is to provoke some discussion and in our discussion I have asked what others think needs to be done to try and stop these acts of terrorism.




As another member posted here, you need to get your facts straight. The issue of who's land it really is has been debated here several times in the past. I believe that the only thing that everyone seemed to agree on at the time was that it really comes down to one's own beliefs and if they consider biblical history a part of the equation.





I am going to take that comment as one made in the heat of the debate in general, and not one made with the intent to provoke any kind of personal debate between us. You've been here for a little over a year Johnny, you have absolutely no idea whatsoever how seriously I take these issues, especially when it comes to acts of terrorism.





Don Cardi

Cardi,
I'm mixing metaphors here, which is always dodgy business and often misunderstood, so bear with me. Either way, this is going to be obscure, perhaps irrelevant, and feel free to reject my argument - I'm not sure if I'm fully convinced of it myself.

...But what do you think about films which sympathise with these so-called "non-humans"? Such as, say, Paradise Now? You may not have seen it, but you get the jist when you read synopses, about two suicide bombers in Palestine chosen for a mission in Israel the following day. Are the intentions of that film also lacking definition enough to be graded human?

The human condition is far from black-and-white. With that I'm sure you'll agree. In fact I think humans in general are weak and fickle. It's clear that, self-truth aside (which is a whole other debate), these suicide bombers have been "morally warped", so to speak, corrupted from having been born with the potential to care, love and be generous, but for whatever reason have been nurtured into following a system of beliefs which happen to oppose anything which might prove dangerous to their idea of "freedom".

What is it, then, to be "human"? What constitutes a human being? Is it something to do with moral ethics? Political beliefs? Somebody who doesn't eat meat?

Or somebody who simply doesn't kill other people?

Capo, I canot say that I have seen that movie. Perhaps it is one that I should add to my list. And I respect that you have approached this discussion with an open mind and have responded to what's been said with both legitimate points and questions.

You ask "What constitutes a human being?"

Well in the context of what's being discussed in this topic, I will answer your question to the best of my ability. Although I don't profess to have the right answer, I believe that I have an idea as to what a human being is pertaining to this issue.


While I agree that it is not a black and white issue, I do believe that there are certain parameters that constitute a 'basic' (for lack of a better word) understanding of what it means to be human. Sort of a foundation if you may.

Human beings are usually known for their desire to understand and influence the world around them and what goes on in it. And with that desire should come an exchange of ideas through civilized communication. The human being is intelligent enough to understand and know that a society must exist which consists
of laws, ethics and values that form a basis for living in that society.

Yes, a human being could have different religious beliefs and ideas than the next person has, but tolerance and respect need to exist between them. Tolerance and respect are qualities that are a part of being a human being.

Compassion is also a part of the makeup of being a human being.
It is a trait that a real human being will have towards others.
A human being holds the lives of others in high regard and does not view that other persons life as being a meaningless one in order to suit their own cause.

A human being does not act like an animal and throw all values and ethics out the window by taking human lives at will. Animals have no regard for life, humans should.

Yes it is true that during war, human lives on both sides of a conflict are taken and lost, and it is horrible. However even in war their exists a sense of ethics and parameters that both sides try to live by. An unwritten rule that the warring factions follow in attempting to keep the battle between those who are fighting on the front lines. An attempt, not always a successful one mind you, to keep from killing innocents and civilians that are not part of the front line war itself.

But in a case like this one, the suicide bomber shows no compassion, does not hold human life in a high regard, and does not care about the lives of innocent children or civilians. The suicide bomber shows absolutely no traits of being a human being because, like an animal, their mentality is one which encompasses their OWN beliefs and their OWN ideals, and does not consist of tolerance or respect towards others, which is part of being a real human being. So like a wild animal they arbitrarily set out to justify their cause by taking the lives of those who do not adhere to their ideas and beliefs. Like an animal they have this idea that their own kind should be the only ones that exist in the world, and that their is no room for anyone else who does not adhere to their way of thinking and their way of life.

To me, those kind of actions and that way of thinking does not make up what a human being really is.




Don Cardi

Her son Jihad???

Doesn't that mean "holy war"?

Make of that what you will. Unbelievable.

Signor V.

Biblical equation!? How the hell do can you say you're not biased and not pushing an agenda?

That's an absurd reason to give a religion land. Not a people, a religion. As I have explained, the Jews of today are not "Israelites," making any biblical reasoning null and void

Here's a clue-

Europeans lost the Crusades, the land went to indigenous people. Then Jews flooded in from Europe, fought a war with US and UK backing, killed people and established a government

The people there responded by fighting back and have turned to blowing themselves up. I can list many examples of westerners doing worse that are considered OK today even though they were atrocities

Not produced positive results? Korea, Desert Storm...

Any argument constructed around Palestinians not being human beings is flawed and wrong

The United States achieved a great victory in both conflicts in that they helped to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi aggression, and they did the same for the South Koreans.

Seriously Johnny, you keep coming back with these one liners like "Any argument constructed around Palestinians not being human beings is flawed and wrong" and the old "I can list" responses.

But you don't give explainations of why you believe someone's arguement is wrong by providing your own reasons, and you never seem to list the examples that you continually keep claiming to have.

I would really appreciate it if you would provide us with some facts, instead of giving us these generic type responses.

It makes for a much more solid debate.


Don Cardi

Yes Vitelli, I also picked up on that when I read the article.

I don't know. Normal people call their grandmothers to find out how to make certain foods and desserts.

These people call their grandmothers to find out how to make certain bombs and explosives.



Don Cardi

Many of them are not that different from us EXCEPT that they're willing to die for a political belief. This is what I was alluding to earlier.

Much like we had to learn to deal with the Japanese suicide bombers in WWII we must learn to deal with these fanatics today in the Middle East. We're fighting a different kind of enemy now; one that can't be identified by a uniform. To understand them is the first step in helping to defeat them.

.

Mad Johnny,

If (and this is an "if") you are referring to the "flood" of European Jews into Israel as the pilgrimage that many Jews made after the Holocaust, I find your characterization of this as rather an unusual one. These European Jews were the too few survivors of an incredible and unbelievable genocide who found their previous homeland's to be a vast cemetery, their families massacred. They ran blockades and surmounted incredible hurdles in order to return to what they considered their promised land.

While there are many who have issues with the way that the UN sanctioned the country of Israel, and have issues with the US support of this country, how can you equate one with the other?

Are their madmen in any culture? I believe that the likes of Tim McVeigh, Charles Whitman and Dylan Klebold have taught us that there are. However, by and large, the US as a country and Americans as a culture, do not indoctrinate children into believing that they will only achieve honor for themselves and their families by slaughtering anyone who does not share their beliefs, that "infidels" (translation: anyone who thinks differently than you) are the enemy and that no possible tolerance of a different way of life, culture or set of beliefs is allowed.

So the destruction of their homes in Europe gave them the right to take another people's land? That does not make sense.

DC, the point is I should not have to go into such things. Because by not acknowledging Palestinians are humans, you have a flawed argument. There is no way around that. You're trying to change what they are in order to fit your ideas and that's wrong.

Great success in Korea? What!? That was a horrid war that has not ended and right now the situation is the same as it was before the war. It is not a great success.

Desert Storm a great success? Nope, it took a second invasion to try and right that mess and that only turned into a bigger fiasco.

My replies are not "generic" and I do answer any challenges to my points. I guess I just assume too much prior knowledge here in this case.

I think that you have it backwards. It is they who are trying to change what others believe to fit their own ideas, and that is why they carry out the acts that they do. They have and continue to try to force their ideas and beliefs on others by using acts of violence and by murdering innocent children and civilians.

Where have I 'forced' my ideas and beliefs on anyone? All I've tried to advocate here is that these people need to cease the hatred, the killing and the violence if they ever want to be heard and listened to.

If you act like an animal, you will be treated as one. If you act like a civilized human being, then you'll be heard.

We can go back and forth all day long if we want. However it is quite obvious that you will continue to believe that they are justified in what they do, and that I will never be convinced that they are.


Now as for your statement about Kuwait, again, I think that you have your facts mixed up on that one. Perhaps you should go back and re-read your notes.


Don Cardi

It has nothing whatsoever to do with being 'wired straight'.

It has to do with a teaching, a belief, an attitude toward another group of people that's instilled into your head from the day you are born.

That's why they feel she's 'brought great honor to the homeland'...and the sooner we strategize with that in mind, the better.

Apple

ps - Mad Johnny is correct about one thing, and one thing only...the Korean War. It never ended and there was NO U.S. success. A treaty is all there has been to keep another bullet from being fired over the past 50+ years.

Yes, it is something that is instilled and inbreaded in these people from birth. But that doesn't mean that they are normal or that their teachings should be accepted or tolerated. It doesn't mean that they are wired straight either.


Although you and Johnny do not see our intervention in the Korean War as a success on our part, I do. The South Koreans were not conquered by the North. The spread of communism was halted because of our support and South Korea transformed itself into a democracy with a free-market economy. In the end it turned out to be a successful defense of South Korea's territory.

I don't view that as failing on our part. And neither would those veterans who fought in that war.

Don Cardi

Please explain.



Don Cardi

Mad:

You do neeeeed!!! to check your history. Indigenous? Once again (in case you forgot) Mohammed was a bedouin from the Arabian peninsula who owed his allegiance to an arabian clan. His followers came from the same place. The Seljuks in the tenth century were nomads from asia. Salad ed Din in the twelth century was a Kurd. The Mameluks in the thirteenth century were from southern Russia.

What peoples is it exactly that you are maintaining are indigenous to Palestine which, by the way, was the Roman name for most of the middle east which included Syria as a major province and Judea as only part of that province? That's why Judea was ruled by a procurator and not a Governor as Syria was. Who was it that Pompey attacked in 60 BC and who was it that routed the Roman forces under Cestius Gallus in 66 AD. Were the Romans attacking Palestinians or Jews or Israelites, or Israelis? It probably didn'tr matter to the romans what they called themselves. But it's recorded that they called themselves Jews and they defended their peoles, their homeland, their Temple, and their religious practices. Again, who's indigenous?

DC, you tried to hack what I stated. You, and this is fact, are trying to change Palestinians from humans to less than human. You called them "barbarians." In fact, they are humans. Logically, because they are humans, you're argument falls apart because it is based on them being non-human.

I never ever stated that they are right in what they are doing. Again, this is an attempt on your part to intentionally misintepret me.

Ever think that the ideas you are promoting were "instilled and inbreaded" in you from birth?

Let's just have all the Irish Catholics in America go back to Ireland and take it over, set up a new government and oppress the local people.

According to you, no one is indigenous.

Just because the founder of Islam is from another area, it does not make Palestinians foreigners. You're basing nationality on religion.

Ok, so I'll call it "the Levant" from now on instead of "Palestine."

People living in a Roman territory weren't all Roman citizens. The people living in that area are Semites. Just because some Semites are Muslims does not make them foreigners. Semitic Jews were expelled from the area. Those that were non-Jewish were allowed to stay.

Let's see now. Yes, some of what I believe in was probably instilled in me at birth. I would like to think that what was instilled in me at birth was the fact that I was taught that I should respect other human life. Is this what's been instilled in the mind of a suicide bomber? Which would YOU rather instill in your child?


And please Johnny, stop taking everything so personally! I never attempted to INTENTIONALY misinterpret you. Sometimes people can misunderstand something that you are trying to say. It's not always a case of intentional misinterpretation.

NO WHERE have I ever advocated that those people should NOT believe in the religion that they practice but instead should believe in mine. You're twisting words here Johnny. Intentional?


Don Cardi

And I never said you did advocate that So who's twisting now?

My point about what someone learns from birth depends on where that person is. In America, and I'm not saying you personally, there is a natural tendency to dislike Islam that is drilled from birth. The same thing the other way around happens there.

MJ
IMHO I seriously doubt that all American's instill in our children to hate Islam from birth. I know I wasn't brought up to hate like that.

Just like it is for Cardi, it's a challenge for me to follow your logic, your arguments. One of them is that the Jews invaded Palestine and stole it from the indigenous peoples. Again, who do you define as indigenous? Also, you seem to be basing this one of your arguments on a pedantic temporal period that's not much more than the past half century.

[quote=Don Cardi...NO WHERE have I ever advocated that those people should NOT believe in the religion that they practice but instead should believe in mine...[/quote]

No. But you're calling them & their teachings 'not normal'.

While I agree with you that the beliefs should be neither tolerated nor accepted, this stuff is quite 'normal' to them.
Because it is apparently all they know.

While keeping South Korea free was technically a 'success', then there was success for the other side as well. The U.S. did not 'win' that war. As MJ states...it has never ended therefore has no winner.

Apple

We can claim bias against Islam, we can argue that "not wired straight" is different from hearing a certain doctrine over and over and over since infancy, we can argue that the long arm of the American military has added insult to the injuries that some people feel has been perpetrated, we can argue that some believe that these acts of violence are performed by barbarians that are less than human. One thing is very clear to me. Anyone who straps on explosives and blows themselves up in a purposeful attempt to take as many innocent lives with them as possible is not humane. And there is no justification for it, IMO.

Care to provide us with some fact to back up that kind of a claim? Personally I think that your statement is outrageous. Not saying that there aren't scattered cases of that going on here in the U.S., but you make it sound as though it is a cultural thing within the U.S.

I am also waiting for an answer to this question that I posted to you earlier : Which would YOU rather instill in your child?



WRONG! North Korea along with soviet backing planned on conquering South Korea to convert them to communism. They did NOT succeed in doing that.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED By South Korea and the United States!

Therefore the misson of the North Koreans, "the other side," was NOT a success as you claim it was. It was not a matter of winning a war on the part of the U.S. It was a matter of stopping North Korea and it's communist ways from overtaking the South and converting it to communism. A way for the USA to stop the spreading and threat of communism.



Don Cardi

Now you're talkin!!!

Although I can't think of an instance where these people nor anyone else has considered it 'humane' behavior...since their purpose IS to take lives in a violent manner, and cause others to suffer horribly.

And of course there is 'no justification for it' in your opinion nor mine. But there IS justification for it in theirs. As stated, they feel it 'honors the homeland'.

Which again brings up the profound statement:
"The sooner our leaders here in the U.S. realize that, the sooner we'll be better to deal with the situation over there."

Apple

ps - So glad to know that we 'can argue' here on the BB! It's something no one has tried before!!!

Well said SB. Well said.


Don Cardi

You've definitely over simplified the Korean conflict, DC.

I've pointed out that Palestinians are more indigenous than those who came from Europe after WWII.



Surely you calling them "barbarians" is proof of my assertion. Also, how about the crack downs and discrimination targeted at Muslims after 9/11? That was pretty apparent. How about those Muslim men who were kicked off a plane just recently because some little girl was scared of them?

Show me proof the the domino theory is actually real, DC. Also, China was the major backer of Korea, not the Soviets. The Russians supplied planes and pilots and little else.

Who's arguing? I don't sense any hostility in SB's post, and I know that there isn't any in my posts. As far as I am concerned, we're having a discussion.


Don Cardi

Maybe we should have a separate Korean war/communism thread to keep the focus clear?

Don't you get board of talking about the same thing all the time. War,War,War...

Not true.

Though I'm sure you would like to believe that as a justification for your 'understanding them' and 'seeing their side of it' mantra.

Apple

ps - Just curious since it was mentioned earlier in the thread. (And not necessarily for Mad J to answer.) Why is it that YOU have returned from 'Thanksgiving exile' and Double-J is, in your words, 'gone'.

Actually the survivors of the holocaust were only a small fraction of the total number of Jews that left Europe for Israel. Germany started exporting Jews in the 1930's as a peaceful means of relieving the tension. Often times at the request of the respective Jew. It was working well until world warII started, then the program as well as Jewish relations in Europe were officially done for.

In the general sense. Not necessarily referencing this thread.

Apple

Yes, China was the major backer of North Korea. They were the Tattaglias of the war. Russia provided combat advisors, military pilots and weapons. They were the Barzini's of the war.


Still waiting for an answer to my original question to you.


Don Cardi

I'm just trying to push the opposite side of the argument because there is truth on both sides. I'm not Palestinian so I don't know exactly how they feel.

DJ is gone, sadly

I'd rather have my children figure it out for themselves and not instill any kind of agenda in them DC

UN Resolution 83 approved by the UN Security Council in June, 1950 called upon UN membership to provide military forces to repel North Korea's invasion of South Korea. That they did and repelled the North Korean armed forces north of the 38th parallel which was the original Korean peninsula demarcation line. Thus, success was achieved. That resolution did not call upon UN members to do any more than what they did. That's a win in my book.

By UN member you really mean the US and UK and the sheer suffering from that horrid conflict did not solve the situation. The war is still on officially, so there is no win

Through a 'cease fire' agreement, one that has thankfully remained unbroken for all these years. 'Mission Accomplished'...for as long as that remains the case. The war itself never actually ended

Interesting you should state it was ' It was not a matter of winning a war on the part of the U.S.' ... since earlier you referred to it as a 'great victory'.

Apple

Wars never really 'end.' Texas has been fighting Mexico for 200 yrs, Pakistan is still fighting India, the Koreans were fighting one another before and after the U.S/Soviet involvement. This list goes on and on and on.

Most ppl fail to view it this way, but its true. There are lots and lots of wars waging today. Maybe not the traditional ones with f-16's and atom bombs, but ppl are dying and will continue to die in these 'never ending wars' that continue to rage at this very moment.

Wars do end. I mean, Germany isn't still fighting France. Eventually a war will end

Nah, those wars w/ France and Germany have been raging since antiquity. Again, maybe no F-16's or atom bombs, but a war all the same.

It goes on and on.

World War I can be traced back to the pri-mordial
German forests and the times of Tacitus. It didn't just end all of the sudden in 1945.

I don't see France and Germany fighting now at all. Also, this is wandering off topic

Some of you really, really need to learn some history and semantics. Firty-seven (47) nations contributed military forces to the effort to repel the North Korean invaders. Proportionately, Canadians suffered the most casualities.

UN forces achieved the objective that was clearly and explicitly defined by the UN resolution that was approved by the UN Security Council. That resolution did not use the word war. There was no declaration of war by either side.

So if some extremist fanatic jihadist got your son or daughters ear, and instilled in your son or daughter that they were doing God's work by carrying out a suicide bombing attack, and your son or daughter figured out, for themselves, that what they were about to do was the right thing, you'd have no problem with it. At least your answer is an honest one that has now given me a better understanding of the type of person that you are.


Don Cardi

Of course they do. They usually end when the losing side signs something called a 'Surrender', such as Japan and Germany did at the conclusion of WWII. It's possible that even Saddam Hussein signed one at the conclusion of the Gulf War, only he did not adhere to the terms he agreed to in order to be allowed to remain in power (Result: Bush 43 cleaning up after Bush 41 and Clinton 42).

Most ppl fail to view it this way, but its true.

You can certainly say that the issues that were fought over during WWI remained unresolved and therefore led to WWII...but BOTH did end with a clear victory and defeat.

Far as I know...no one has yet 'surrendered' with regard to the Korean Conflict.

Apple

And again, I'll repeat what I said earlier and hopefully this time you'll understand my point. It was a great victory for the free world because it stopped the spread of communism and it allowed the South Koreans to live in a democracy. That, in itself, is a victory in my book.

Besides, the original statement made by another member was that the Korean War was a failure.

I've explained to you both why I feel that is was a victory. Now it's time for you to explain to me why you feel it was a failure.

Don Cardi

That's really not what he said. While I don't agree with Mad Johnny I believe you're putting words in his mouth in order to further your own argument.

Shame on you, DC...although I have to say that when you do on occasion resort to these tactics it gives a better understanding of the type of person that you are.



Apple

HINT: Pick up a volume of early Teutonic history and it will show you the roots of WWI in around the yr 200.

I'm sure you knew that though.

( )

I can post laughys too.

For the record, although the US signed a peace treaty with Germany after WWI, the US Senate refused to ratify it. Thius, there is no such treaty. Also, many times after WWII, the Soviet Union threatened to sign a peace treaty with East Germany that the US opposed them doing. The US has not signed a peace treaty with Germany. So, are we stil at war with Germany? You tell me. Can you say "Korea?"

Too bad DJ is physically unable to weigh in on the Korean war... he used to be the resident Truman expert

Nope, you're not correct. In both examples you cited, the other side surrendered thereby ending the conflict

I specifically referred to the signing of 'Surrenders', usually 'Unconditional Surrenders'...not 'peace treaties'.

Like I said...you can correctly state that the conflicts that lead to wars are never resolved for sometimes centuries...but the wars themselves do end. That is why almost every generation in recorded history has had to live through one.

The Korean Conflict has not ended, as neither side has surrendered. There was a cease fire. While Democracy has prevailed in South Korea which is a wonderful thing..neither side has emerged completely victorious.

Apple

Why not let him answer for himself? He's capable of it. He knows what he said. He clearly said that he would NOT instill any kind of agenda in them and would let them figure it out for themselves. So I don't see that I was putting words in Johnny's mouth.




Coming from the type of person that you have shown yourself to be, I'll take that as a comliment.



Don Cardi

Is there something wrong with him?

I would hope that somebody would let us know if something was wrong.


Don Cardi

What in the world do you figure is complete victory? Once again, the UN resolution requested the contribution of military forces to repel the North Korean invasion. Such forces were contributed and the North Korean invasion was repelled. That is complete victory.

It took a second invasion?


Don Cardi

When American CIA and British MI-6 were fighting against Russian KGB and East German Stasi after WWII no one saw that either. But there was still lots of killing and it was just as important a war as the WWII itself. Our intelligence agencies and black-operations units fight 'unseen' wars all over the world every day. As do the Germans and French.

Awww, now DC...don't let on to the entire list that you're sore because I haven't responded to your PM olive branches. If anything, I've ALWAYS shown myself to be the same way on this board, take-it-or-leave-it, like it or not. It was others who have revealed their petty, selfish traits over the past months, and THAT is what I respond to in kind and perhaps what YOU don't like.

But back to the topic at hand:

"So if some extremist fanatic jihadist got your son or daughters ear, and instilled in your son or daughter that they were doing God's work by carrying out a suicide bombing attack, and your son or daughter figured out, for themselves, that what they were about to do was the right thing, you'd have no problem with it."

THAT is what I'd call putting words into someone's mouth. But you are correct in one thing...Mad Johnny has not yet responded to it.

Apple

You perceived them as being olive branches. Sorry that you took it that way.

But back to the topic :

When did you become Mad Johnny's spokesperson?


Don Cardi

It was obvious what he was trying to do so there was no reason for me to respond to that

I miss DJ, he could have put everyone in their place

You know what, I'll bite. Is there a reason why you have to make it seem like Double-J is dead when in truth he was only suspended for a few days and was reinstated the same time you were?

Why not cool it with all this R.I.P. and I wish he were still around talk, he can come back whenever he wants, just like you did.

If he could come back, he would

so why can't he?

He's not with us anymore. I didn't want to start a thread because people like you would have your reaction

I'm sure DJ will come back to the BB when he is good and ready.

And what exactly is a "person like me"

You don't want to start a thread, you'd rather just drop your little hints in posts. I guess a "person like me" is someone who would question you?

Yeah, people like you have insensitive reactions. Plus, like you, no one would take it seriously so I didn't bother. Its really sad you know, to have your friend since high school taken away

Well you have the second part right. To say I would have an insensitive reaction to someone dieing is pretty immature in my opinion. I'd love to know why you think I'd have that kind of reaction.

So start a thread, post the article or whatever about what happened, I'm sure its in the news.

My opinion, this is all a hoax (yeah you know "people like me" so well) and in a few weeks he'll return and you'll both have a big laugh. If it is true then post the article.

Article? So, when every person dies there's an article? riiight

There would be an obituary, or the funeral home website would have the information on his wake. There is always information somewhere if someone dies. Especially if he was in good health and died in a car accident or of an unfortunate incident, there would be something.

All the more reason this is a hoax. But please continue on.

I don't care if I get suspended for this, but where the hell do you get off talking that way about a friend of mine? What the fuck is wrong with you? I specifically asked not to post a thread by his girlfriend you heartless prick.

Go see how you feel if a really close friend of yours is no longer around, you bastard

OK, enough of this.

Unless DJ blew himself up, get back on topic.

I am sorry for your loss MJ. I will definitely miss him, he was one of the logical posters here. RIP