Vito, drugs & morality?

In both the novel and the film, Vito tells Solozzo that he can't go along with his deal because drugs would jeopardize the police and political protection he needed for his gambling and union interests. But in the novel, Vito seems to invoke some "moral" objections to drugs:

--As he's about to leave his office for Connie's wedding,Tom says he can't hold off the Solozzo meeting much longer. Vito replies, "What he will propose will be an infamita."

--After Tom finishes briefing Sonny and Vito about the upcoming Solozzo meeting, Vito tells him, "Do you have in your notes that Solozzo made his living before the war from prostitution? As the Tattaglias do now? Write that down before you forget." Tom is stung, but attributes it to the fact that Vito was "notoriously straighlaced in matters of sex." (How Tom knew that could be the topic of another thread. )

Do you think that Vito was serious about those objections, and that they had any weight in his decision not to go with Sol's proposition? If not, why did he raise them?

What i think out weighs everything else on this matter is Vito had no need for the drug business, people who get into drugs need money because most the time they are younger and havent established many other rackets if any at all. Who did Solozzo come to for legal protection and money? Vito Corleone. Vito had the unions, the gambling, and the connections, the only person with nothing to gain from this proposition is who? Vito. By agreeing to protect and finance the drug business he would basically be helping the competition develop more connections, protection, and money. Once they have done that who do they no longer have a need for? Vito. Saying yes or no would pretty much end in the same way, with attempts on Vito's life. So going along with his moral values probably seemed the best way to go considering there would be more work and the same ending to saying yes to the deal.

I think the second remark might mean that Vito thinks there must be some fundamental flaw in anyone who worked his way up through prostitution.

That's why I think Solozzo contacted Barzini before he went to Vito:

Sol needed a partner to give him working capital, police/political protection and affiliation with a major NYC family. But he also had something to give: the money his partner would make with him through drugs would buy power. Vito had all the things he needed. But Vito was already on top with businesses that weren't as risky as Sol's. He didn't need Sol's money, and the dangers associated with it.

So Sol must have chosen Barzini first--he was impatient to succeed Vito as No. 1, was younger and more ambitious than the other Dons. Barzini told him that his logic was correct, but he still needed Vito's police/political protection. If Vito knows I'm your partner, he'd say no--he wouldn't want his capital and police/political protection to make his chief rival stronger. Go to Tattaglia. He's a pimp--Vito's not worried about him. Tell Tatt and Vito anything you want, but I'll be your silent partner."

Great point! Do you think Barzini sent Solozzo to Tattaglia because he had made his living before from prostitution? This way he would look like he was just a guy that came up through the ranks in the Tattaglia family and was looking to start an organized narcotics racket? Also do you think Tattaglia was aware of the fact he was being used as a stooge by Barzini, which would be easy due to the fact Tattaglia would be blinded by the millions he was promised to make.

Solozzo was a drugs wholesaler trying to establish a retail network in the US. Prostitution could be a logical starting point for a street-level drugs operation. He also had nightclubs--another prime drugs venue. All of that would be credible to Vito when Sol said the Tatts vouched for him.

I'm guessing that Barzini didn't tell Tatt that he was the real guy behind Sol, at least initially. But once the war broke out, Barzini came out into the open supporting Tatt. Puzo writes (in the Commission meeting scene) that Tattaglia had lost face because the other Dons "knew that his strength had come first from Solozzo and then from the Barzini Family."

I think Vito's remark to Tom is both a father tweaking his son that "Don't think because I'm older that I'm forgetful or didn't do my own investigation" and a not so subtle hint from a boss to a subordinate that his answer to Solozzo would be no.

Vito had contempt for men who allowed their passions to rule them (buyers of sex and/or adulterers, junkies) and even more disdain for people who made money from them. So, especially since his position atop the underworld seemed secure it wasn't that difficult a decision for him to make.

If it were 20 years prior? More difficult to say. He did protect and take into his service a man who killed women and killed his own child. So Vito's "scruples" aren't as important in every circumstance. But no I think the character honestly didn't want to get involved in drug-peddling for moral and practical reasons. He didn't have as much to gain as Solozzo did.

But what did Barzini give Sollozzo?

If you think about it, do you think Solozzo is the first person to come to him with an offer like this? Hell no, this is New York city, drug trafficking didnt start in the 1930s or the 1830s. It started with the beginning of human travel and settlement. Along with uncut diamonds, alcohol, humans, and any other form of matter that a person was willing to pay/trade for.

Barzini gave Solozzo direction, told him the best way to go about getting what he needed to become New York's drug kingpin.

I'm guessing that, initially, Sol thought Barzini would give him better terms for a deal than Vito would because Barzini had more to gainn from a drugs partnership than did Vito. But after Vito's no, I'm sure Barzini gave him the go-ahead to whack Vito, and promised that the other families would fall in behind him.

We can assume that the Commission is up and running at this time. So, how does it fit in with your scenario?

The only thing i can think of olivant is that Barzini and Tataglia were aligned... so by taking out a third boss (Vito), the other two families may have sided with them to avoid an all out war. Besides the other families would be cut in the profits (I'm assuming) to keep them from aligning with the Corleones.

Oli, I'm sorry I missed your question months ago.

My assumption is that, although the Five Families War involved only NYC, the Commission was called to order by both sides to marshal support for their cases. Barzini benefited by this strategy: the out of town Dons wanted a piece of the profitable drugs business. And, although Vito would provide protection only in the East, the other guys would want the blessings of the Big Five for their own drugs businesses.

I believe that Vito said no to drugs because, as he stated, he had political/police power and they would also be morally against drugs. By him condoning it he would lose out either in connections outright refusing to deal with him, or heavier bribes to get them to look the other way.

I also believe that, if he had said yes, we would have gotten the same result only down the line when the Corleone's power was weaker. Barzini could have stepped in to pick up the connections that abandoned Vito due to his going in on the drugs (after all, he was a silent partner and nobody knew he was backing Tattaglia and Sollozzo), and later on he could have had even more power.

So Vito's 'friends in high places' would abandon him for someone who was up his neck in drugs as well? Does that make sense?

There was nothing to my recollection connecting Barzini with drugs, and Barzini was the second most powerful Mafioso behind Vito. If Vito was exposed as having dealings with drugs, his friends would have easily been swept up by the #2 guy, the guy who was in the shadows the whole time and never showed his face, Don Emilio Barzini.

Pretty sure Sollozzo with the Tattaglias, the Tattaglias were being used as fronts for Barzini. He had just as much to gain from the drugs as they did.

At the meeting of the bosses after Sonny's murder Puzo writes that "Barzini was in narcotics". He wasn't old-fashioned. It was his goal to supplant Corleone as top dog.

So presumably everyone knew that Barzini supported drug dealing. And Vito should have known before then that Tattaglia and Sollozzo were backed by Barzini. But Vito was indeed slipping. He was wrong (assuming he even believed it) about the difficulty of corrupting politicians, judges, and law enforcement to take money to protect narcotics dealers and importers. And even given his personal distaste for narcotics he was not in a field where he could let personal feelings interfere with business decisions.

I could have sworn that Barzini kept in the shadows for everything, so while he was in the drug business (backing Tattaglia and Sollozzo) nobody was aware of his involvement. I could be wrong though it's been a while since I've read the novel.

Although there were (and are) Dons who proscribed drug dealing, different Dons go to different extents to proscribe it or discourage it. However, they tend to show their real hand when it comes to profiting from it endangering them. I thought it interesting that while Vito told Sollozzo that drugs is a dirty business, his primary objection to becoming involved in it wa the danger it posed to his other criminal activities. Of course, it shold be noted that Vito had no objection to how a man makes his living.

Except he really did, because he knew full well that without his protection Sollozzo wouldn't be able to get his operation going full force, and he also must have known that since Sollozzo was a "man of honor" he wouldn't take that refusal kindly.

Which is why he sent Luca. Even if it was a clumsily done move, he still had enough sense to know that there was more to the story and that Sol wasn't a man who would deem a refusal the act of a friend.