IF Tom had been a Sicilian

Tom's my favorite character in the GF series. He's so damn smooth and calm and cool and calculating. I dont think any character in the whole series learned more from the Don then he.

He has always been loyal to the family and had all the cunning of a sicilian, and since VIto didnt want Michael mixed up in the buisness, if he was Sicilian do you think he would have taken the reins of Don after SOnny's death?

Many would disagree with that.

He wasn't cunning enough to detect the Sollozzo/Carlo Rizzi alliance and the move which lured Sonny out in the open and led to his demise.

He said as much himself in the novel, I believe.

I dont remember that, but I remember many times in the novel when they would praise Tom's sharpness. For example when he figured hed be out because of Roccos regime, and he was teh one that warned the family that sollozo had an ace up his sleeve before the attack on VIto at the hospital.

Tom is my favorite character (behind Michael of course). He poses such a stark contrast in so many ways with the rest of the family. He's the tall, blond, educated, straight man who never realy seems to belong, much like Kay. You got to feel sorry for Tom in part II when Mike meets w/ Johnny Ola and Tom (former consliere)has to leave the room. Like, "its time for the grown ups to talk now Tom".

Tom is great and I think he is an amazing Consilgierie. The contrast between Tom and Michael in my opinion is one of talent and where their intellects lie. It's like the difference between a CEO and a CFO in business. Both are really educated and intelligence, it's just one is a slightly better leader. Michael was a better leader in my opinion and Tom a better consilgierie. Furthermore Tom's #1 deficiency was that he wasn't "a war time consilgierie", he was more the brains behind the brains specializing in business and legal matters.

Wasn't that Michael?

From the novel, the scene where Tom tells Don C. that Sonny has been killed:

"He was, he knew now, no fit Consigliori for a Family at war. He had been fooled, faked out, by the Five Families and their seeming timidity. They had remained quiet, laying their terrible ambush. They had planned and waited, holding their bloody hands no matter what provocation they had been given. They had waited to land one terrible blow. And they had. Old Genco Abbandando would never have fallen for it, he would have smelled a rat, he would have smoked them out, tripled his precautions." (italics mine)

Tom is also my favorite character. I do believe that if he was Sicilian he would have become the Don and Michael would have been able to be a politician or "the one pulling the strings" as his Father wanted him to be. Don Vito made a huge leap in letting Tom become the consigliere in the first place considering he was not a Sicilian.

Tom was just as cunning as Michael. I know I'm going to get alot of grief for that but if you think about how things eventually played out, Tom would have handled things much differently. Fredo never would have felt stepped over, Michael and Kay would have lived happily ever after, and Rocco would never have been sent on a suicide mission.

As far as Tom not being a "wartime consigliere". What else was he supposed to do? He tried to stop Sonny. Sonny knew he was in danger, it wasn't his first war, he lost his temper and lost his head in the process. Tom's thoughts that plawrence quotes after finding out his best childhood and adult friend have been killed are natural. Of course he is going to blame himself, Tom was closer to Sonny than anyone. Sonny got them in the war in the first place by talking during the Solozzo meeting. Tom new that flaw the second it happenend, Sonny didn't have a clue. Even Don Vito says he never thought Tom a bad consigliere.

Michael claiming that Tom is just not a wartime consigliere is, in my mind, just an excuse for Michael to weild his power without having to listen to Tom's rational advice.

Good points Kristen. Part of the reason why he was denounced as a War time consigliari was because he wasn't specialized as one, that wasnt' his forte. Part of the reason is because Michael could not fully trust anyone fully with his plans, so he took him out of the role. Finally you do make a good point, I think Tom would have been more reasonable about the situation. I think it's Tom's personality that makes him a more compassionate person than Michael and is therefore a worse candidate for the job.

I don't think Tom Hagen would be don even if he was Sicilian. The title of Don would usually stay within the immediate family if it could be helped. The destiny of Michael Corleone was to become don of the Corleone family, nothing could have prevented that. Michael has the strategic mind that his father had, and Tom Hagen would not prove to be able to hold the family together in times of war or when they are threatened with violence from the other five families.

I disagree with you. Tom was a member of the immediate family. We are talking about who would take over after Sonny's death. If Tom was a Sicilian there would be no doubt that it would have been him. Michael didn't want that kind of life and the Don didn't want it for him either. And if Michael had refused to step in, then Tom would have been the Don dispite not being Sicilian.

Michael had planned to return to a normal life after coming back from Sicily, he only stepped in because of Sonny's death. If Tom was a Sicilian then I believe Michael would have continued on that path. Tom not being Sicilian made the other families disrespect him. I don't think Michael doubted Tom, just doubted what others thought of the family considering he was not Sicilian.

In the book it states that a consigliere has to be 100% sicilian, Don Vito waived this requirement and broke with tradition. Non the less he was accepted although grudgingly by the other families as consigliere. I think being promoted to the Don's status would be do-able, although far more arduous of a task.

Tom was supremely loyal, but he didn't have the "Sicilian cunning." plawrence already posted a telling excerpt from the novel in which Tom himself admits he's no fit consigliere. A Sicilian might have figured that Carlo (who was Sicilian) wouldn't have accepted a public beating and humiliation from Sonny without seeking vengeance. And, while he was a skillful negotiator and a wise counselor, he lacked the personal force to be a Don.

I don't think that Carlo planned any vengeance. I think that after Sonny flew into a rage and beat him, the Barzini's took note. They approached Carlo and, using his dissatisfaction with his position within the Corleone family. They had him pick a fight with Connie, which again flushed Sonny out into the open. If the Barzini's had not approached him, I don't think that Carlo would've done anything. I think he was a typical big bully that would've backed down when beaten by a bigger adversary.

I agree with the above statement.

Makes you wonder why Sonny was so intent on hooking Connie up with Carlo if he knew that Carlo was the kind of person who would side against him.

Another reason why he wouldn't have made a good don, god rest his soul.

Carlo may not have planned vengeance, but he was ready, willing and able when Barzini approached him. Given the stupidity of his action--did he really think that the Corleones wouldn't see the cause/effect between his beating of Connie and Sonny's massacre?--you can see that Carlo's motive was vengeance, not money, power or anything else Barzini might have promised him.

Mike would have become Don, whether Tom was Sicilian or not. It was his destiny. FFC really didn't get the whole "every man has but one destiny" thing across. In the book, Puzo beats the destiny thing into your skull, and so those who have read the book know this. Michael didn't wanna get involved, to be sure, but once he found out about Santino, and once he saw Appolonia killed, he had no choice. He sought vengeance, and what better way than to achieve that vengeance, and have the power to get away with it?

I read the book and I still don't agree with your destiny theory. Yes you can say now "It was destiny" because you know how it turned out. If Tom ended up being the Don you could claim it was his destiny.

The question was whether or not Tom would be the Don if he was Sicilian. I have no doubt that he would have been. That was the only thing causing Don Vito to be hesitant in picking Tom as consigliere in the first place. Michael did not want to be involved in the family business. The only reason why he took over as Don after Sonny's death is because he knew the other families would not approve of a Non-Sicilian as Don.

Tom wanted to be in the family business, Michael did not. Don Vito thought of them both as his sons. Tom was older. Now if they're both Sicilian, then why would the Don choose Michael?

What made the Carlo thing so olbvious is Sonny would have probibly killed him that time for being his wife... who was pregnant none-the-less. That was Sonny, the only way Carlo would be so stupid as to beat Connie again was if he knew Sonny would never get there... and he never did. That's what was truly olbvious to Michael.

True, but Tom did attempt to get bodyguards to go along with Sonny when he stormed out of the mall to go wipe up Carlo, but Sonny was blowing his cork as usual and lit out of there before Tom or anybody else could slow him down.


And Sonny, as acting Don while Vito was laid up, could also be criticized for not detecting Carlo's defection to the Barzinis. Tom certainly bears some of the blame but more than anything else it was Sonny's own hot-headedness.

Sonny could have sent some button men over to round up Carlo with orders "bring him to me," and then smoked him, himself, but he was too hot-headed to wait around for that. He wanted to take care of Carlo himself and he wanted to do it RIGHT THAT MINUTE, and that's what did him in.

If Tom had been a Sicilian...
well, then he wouldn´t have been Tom in the first place, wouldn´t he?
I always reGard the whole persona of this reasonable man as built upon his desire to truly be part of the Corleone family. LivinG with the Corleones as a foster son - the eternal outsider - has influenced his soft-spokeness, his tendency to remain in the backGround, his suckinG up details and information about his environment. he was a fly on the wall, respectively.
Also, his lack of pride and self-confidence, which made him that hesitant (and thus causinG problems) is a result of beinG the ultimate stalwart for the "real sons".
To me it´s impossible to see Tom as a "true Sicilian", since the whole point of his charakter is that he can never be. and it´s not just for the Sicilian cunninG...