When did Mike knew Fredo was traitor?

Hello everybody. I'm new here. I've been reading with interest all the past posts.

Last weekend I saw (once again) the Godfather II and as I have to take care of the children the phone, etc.. I never get to know 'exactly' when does Michael know his own brother has betrayed the Family... Please, any comments are welcome!

Salud, salud, salud!

Welcome to the boards...
The drunken Fredo spilled the beans that he personally knew and socialized with Johnny Ola and Roth at the "Superman" performance.

This is kinda embarrassing, but what exactly was "superman". Was it just a guy with a big penis? Did he do tricks?

Please reply if you know for a fact, and are not just assuming as I am.

I'm ready for all of the smart-ass answers.

Just an extension on what Deathkiss said, when Fredo and Mike are first introduced to Johnny Ola in Cuba. Fredo and Johnny Ola are personally introduced and I think it was asked of Fredo if he had met Ola before and Fredo says no, they shake hands in introduction and Fredo gives a really great awkward glance to Ola (as in awkward first introduction).

Later when Fredo takes Mike's and Roth's enterage out for the evening for entertainment, particularly that weird erotic cuban club, it's asked of Fredo or Fredo foolishly elaborates to the fact that Johnny (Ola) told him about this place. Johnny knows all the best places. This shows Mike that is was Fredo who had prior connection to Ola.

Just a thought, I first think we get a glimpse at the betrayal to come in the GF II, in the first movie. Watching the first one pretty recently it became more evident with Michael saying. "dont ever take sides against the family again" to fredo.

Feels good to be back to the boards

Exactally what UB said. Watch the look on Mike's face, it should tell you everything.That is acting at its best.
Yeah, and he broke a cracker with it, acording to Fredo.

Michael was crushed when Fredo confirmed that he was the traitor with his gaffe at the Superman show. But I think Michael suspected him before that. Check out the hard, penetrating looks Michael gives Fredo in his hotel room when Fredo asks if "anyone I know" is in Havana. Ditto when Michael "introduces" Fredo to Johnny Ola.
As for "Superman": there really was a Superman sex show in pre-Castro Havana, featuring a well-endowed guy. Like everything else in GFII's Cuban scenes, it's totally authentic.

I agree with Turnbull that Michael had been suspicious of Fredo even before the New Years party which confirmed Fredo's guilt. I think Michael may have begun suspecting Fredo all the way back to the night of the Tahoe shooting. If you notice, the one person who is not shown in any of the footage immediately after the shooting was Fredo. We see Deeana, Rocco, & Tom, and various buttonmen. Now that I think about it, Neri wasn't seen by the viewer either. However, the viewer never saw any action by Neri that would make you believe that he would betray Michael. As a previous post said, Fredo took sides with Moe Green back in the first film. Look at another traitor - Tessio. Sal openly questioned Michael's tactics at the meeting announcing Michael would be taking over the Corleone Family.

If nothing else, the long train ride gave Michael time to think about who the traitor was. He probably had a very short list of suspects by the time of the first meeting with Roth.

Well, let's face it ... at THAT meeting Clemenza openly questioned and protested as well, was equally as frustrated as Tessio but did not eventually turn traitor.

And that was an in-house, behind closed doors within-the-family meeting. Much different than what Fredo did in Vegas which was to allow outsiders see him taking sides against his own family.

Apple

Yes, Clemenza also openly questioned Michael. But the big difference was that Tessio never responded to Vito's question of loyalty during the exchange.

VITO CORLEONE
Do you have faith in my judgment?

CLEMENZA
Yes...

VITO CORLEONE
Do I have your loyalty?

CLEMENZA
Yes -- always, Godfather...

VITO CORLEONE
Then be a friend to Michael, and do as he says.

So where's your point in relation to Fredo's betrayal?

Initially you claimed that Tessio was the only other one who openly protested; now when that's proven incorrect, you point out that only Tessio did not answer, "Yes, always Godfather...", in unison with Clemenza after both pleading to Vito to let the handcuffs off.

Look, we agree that both Fredo and Tessio turned traitor to the Family. I see no comparison beyond that because Tessio's betrayal was business. Fredo's was due to stupidity and jealousy.

Apple

goombah, I do recall Micheal responding to Tom that it is possible that anyone can be a traitor because all his people are businessmen. Having said that, not only was Michael suspicious of Fredo, he as suspicious of everyone, including Tom, Al, and Rocco.

Good point, Deathkiss. I think Tessio says something to that effect in the novel. I agree - Michael trusted himself and did not completely trust anyone. Even when Michael told Tom, "That's why at this moment you're the only one I can completely trust," Michael still had some doubts. But I think Michael knew that Tom was probably loyal to a fault.

The point is that Clemenza protested but quickly backpedaled to Vito when the question of loyalty was raised. In my view, Clemenza's comments were critical because they showed that his loyalty was to Vito - unconditionally. And since Vito asked Clemenza to "be a friend to Michael," then Clemenza would follow the request. In contrast, by remaining silent, Tessio was showing that he didn't believe in Michael or Vito's judgment. Tessio didn't have faith in Michael's abilities. Tessio also believed that, under Michael's leadership, Tessio would be on a sinking ship by remaining with the Corleone Family.

An interesting note about the "Superman" scene.

The distressed look that Michael had when he heard Fredo tell Geary "Johnny Ola knows these places like the back of his fan," was only half acting. Pacino was incredibly ill during that scene, and so most of that anguish and distress were true. Immediately after that scene, Pacino was rushed to the hospital, where he was diagnosed with pnuemonia. He was out for close to three weeks.

The lessons of the past with Tessio and Carlo definatly prove that anyone is capable of anything. Carlo, although a bastard was a brother in law and Tessio was one of the oldest of Vito's friends and confidants. Undoubtably MC suspects that anybody is capable of anything. I would argue that Fredo and anyone else would be the last people he would suspect. In GF I, he didn't even tell Tom Hagan everything he was planning, he clearly suspected anything was possible. Tom was his adopted brother and one of the most important family members, his father even trusted him.

Fredo was somewhat different, betrayal would require a certain degree of cunning. Fredo's was one of weakness, he succom to greed and envy. Still having someone of blood betraying him would still be ultimatly demoralizing and traumatic. I think he saw it as possible, but hoped it was totally improbible.

How exactly, could Fredo have made such a stupid slip up? Even though Fredo comes across as dim and stupid, but talking about Johnny Ola with Michael RIGHT behind him? He had to know Mike was still hanging out with them
To me, this is somewhat difficult to beleive. Some one with such a big secret wouldnt blurt it out so obviously, even if they were drunk. If Fredo did somehow anyways, he likely would have noticed quickly after. Fredo is totally aloof to the biggest situation in his life, which he seemed timid and nervous about every other part of the movie

As Michael pointed out, Fredo was weak & stupid. Being drunk could have easily impaired his judgment to the point where he temporarily forgot his secret or didn't know where Michael was at the time. And for those of us who have ever had too much to drink, have you ever tried to talk quietly but ended up talking as loud (or louder) than you normally would? I think that's a possibility for Fredo in this scene.

Fredo is also showing off for his "friends" which I doubt he's had many of.Hes drunk, on top of already being stupid, he's showing off for the women around and all the powerful people around. This is his little place, he showed it to them.

I have to agree. Fredo, while sweet and helpless, is also stupid and weak. His desire to make a real impact on the family would have much to do with his "showing off" at the sex club. He wants to be seen as a big man in the family, not just an errand boy.

I agree that Michael suspects Fredo all along. I always felt that the "banana dacquiri" scene was Michael's way of gently interrogating him. However, you can tell that, although suspiscious, Michael doesn't want his suspiscions confirmed. That's why he looks so devastated when Fredo blurts out his incriminating evidence. Michael almost doubles over as if he has received a physical blow, not just a mental one.

Given Fredo's drunken behavior, we also see why Michael always stuck to club soda. He had a complete commitment to always stay in control, unlike his brother, who often put pleasure first.