Mikes intentions for immobiliare

Im a bit confused about the whole Immobiliare thing. From what i understand, mike agress to pay the churches deficet if he is aloud to take over immobiliare. Is his whole purpose of this just to launder all his illegit money into the company? And i dont understand how the swiss banker dude and the archbispop and the lucchese guy swindled mike. Can someone explain this? im a bit confused.

this is strictly my opinion others may argue

lucchese controlled everyone you mentioned, he controlled the archbishop, keinzig ("swiss banker dude"), don altobello. after mike invested the money into the church the full control vote had to be ratified in rome by the pope himself. with the pope "suddenly" taking illness and later dying there goes the pope's vote for michael and "all bets are off". costing mike his investment, or so it seems.

You, and many, many other people are confused about the whole business. It's one of the fundamental weaknesses of GFIII.

I second you on that. There's a ton of old guys who look exactally the same who are all trying to kill Mike for various unknown reasons. Robo, your explaination would make a lot of sence it I knew who those people were.

My own speculation/guess is that the Immobliare story line was greatly expanded when it became apparent that Duvall would not return to play Tom Hagen.

Watching GF II a couple times over the last few days I am more and more convinced that the final half-hour or so of II is specifically setting up a conflict between Hagen and Michael intended to be played out in the next chapter of the saga.

My guess is that Tom Hagen would have pursued alliances with other organized crime figures such as Altobello and Zasa and opposed the entry of Vincent into the family (too reminiscent of Sonny, who never did trust Hagen as a consigliere). The possibility of Tom Hagen joining forces with one of the other families would have been a huge story line.

On the other side you would have Connie pushing for Vincent to enter the family and Michael caught between the warring factions of the family.

All this would have produced enough dramatic material that the whole Immobliare story line would have either been completely unneccesary or at the very least drastically cut down.

(Although it would have made the Vatican tie-in with Andrew Hagen slightly more meaningful if Tom were still alive and active in family operations.)

The way I see it is that Michael wanted to churn his (illegally obtained) funds into Immobiliare (a legitimate business on the face of it), in order to finally 'go straight' and leave the illegitimate world behind him. Remember how the archbishop tells him how the deal with Immobiliare will wash Michael and his entire family's history clean away.

The deal would also make Michael extremely wealthy, amongst the richest in the world. This would obviously pose a great threat from his enemies point of view.

The Vatican own shares in Immobiliare, Michael makes the deal to buy them, pay off the church's debts, and this is agreed at the initial vote which I think is in New York, and the deal is subject to ratification in Rome.

What Michael may or may not know is that Luccesi is running things behind the scenes, he doesn't want Michael to take control of Immobiliare because of the threat it poses to his own position, and therefore Kleinzig (the swiss banker) who is in Luccesi's pocket, is instucted to veto the deal at the ratification stage. Michael and his lawyer believed the ratificatin meeting to be only a formality, so were understandably furious when the deal fell through.

What I don't quite get is that if the Archbishop was working for Luccesi, why would he agree to the deal with Michael in the first place??

Bella Maria, I agree with you totally on why michael decided to get into Immobilaire. He also wanted it to provide a good income for his children when he's gone that was legitimate, so that their heritage as Corleones will no longer be tarnished.

As for why the Archbishop worked for Luchisi, that's a good question. Maybe he didn't want to work for Luchisi becuase Luchisi wouldn't help the Vatican out of the financial troubles it was having. Luchisi was an evil and dangerous man. Perhaps the Archbishop saw Michael as less threatening to himself, but a good adversary for Luchisi.

he agreed to the deal because michael was willing to pay off the debt. i dont think the archbishop had any intention of going through with the deal. IMO the archbishop was terrified of michael, he played it off like he was behind michael the whole time, i.e. the shareholders meeting the where the archbishop says that vatican can trust michael with full control of immobliare. now the archbishop has michael in his trust, but how to take his money without losing his trust and putting his own life on the hand.
the only vote that truly matters for michael's complete control "sudenly" falls ill a few days before he was supposed grant michael full control of immobliare. lucchessi and his men have their money and the church probably still would have been in debt if michael wouldnt have survived the attempt on his life and the other don's by lucchessi's "muscle" in new york.....zasa.

All of you offer excellent theories of why Immobiliare was important to Michael, why Lucchesi and Gilday opposed him, etc. But all raise more questions. Why does Michael need further "cleansing" after handing out $100 million to the poor of Sicily, becoming a Papal Knight, and bailing out the Vatican Bank? What is Immobiliare, and why is Immobiliare, and not some other business, the key to "cleansing" Michael? Where did Altobello come from, and why is he trying to have Michael killed? Why did Gilday try to cheat Michael? Sure, Lucchesi's a villain. But what kind of villain is he? Why is he opposing Michael over Immobiliare? What's his role in it? It's these and other loose ends and careless plot threads that make GFII so feeble compared with the others, IMO.

where to start............as far as why michael needed "more cleansing" if you remember in the beginning when Abbandando is talking to the press about the award that michael has just received the press continues to bring up michael's past. right there it shows us that even after such a high honor is given to michael, it stil isnt good enough to clear his name.
ABBANDANDO
The order of Saint Sebastian is one of the highest honors the Catholic Church can bestow upon a layman. The award was first granted by Pope Gregory…

REPORTER
What about Mr. Corleone’s connections with Las Vegas gambling?

ABBANDANDO
Presskits have pictures of…

REPORTER
what about his involvements with the underworld?

ABBANDANDO
Hey, cut the crap, huh? The Pope -- the Holy Father himself -- has this very day blessed Michael Corleone; and you think you know better than the Pope?
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immobliare is explained when michael is talking to the archbishop.
"Largest landlord on earth, real estate all over the world worth six billion dollars." which the church owns 25% of

its a purely legitimate money maker. mike was looking for a better to make his family the most powerful, he wanted to take the family in the right direction. cleansing his family name through the relationship with the church and its relation to immobliare.

altobello was the peacemaker, i believe he was a negotiator for lucchessi and the muscle lucchessi needed to be powerful. first joey zasa was called upon from altobello to take care of michael for lucchessi as michael was starting to understand that this vatican bank was very corrupt. zasa was looked down upon by most don's as a low life so he knew that he would never get away with killing michael and being respected for it, so he orders the massacre that get's rid of all his enemies.
michael lives thru the blood bath.....he wants to write to zasa in hopes to keep zasa close to find out more about who is really against because he knows zasa is just muscle and would have nerve to pull off something like this without the backing
"our true enemy has not shown his face"
vincent lets his temper get the best of him and kills zasa, there goes michaels informant.......but then he remembers altobello had survived the massacre because he made a "deal" with zasa. so he must know something.......they both retire to sicily, michael has hopes of finding out more about whos against him and stopping him from rising up, and how involved altobello happens to be. altobello has hopes of bringing the bate, that survived the massacre, to luchessi out in sicily in hopes to better his postion
after the meeting with don tommasino mike finds out that altobello is just the peacemaker between this unknown enemy and the muscle. he also finds out that this unknown enemy that wants michael gone is lucchessi. luchessi controls the archbishop gilday, swiss banker, and altobello all in a plot to gain more money
mike asks vincent to betray him to find out how deep altobello is involved. after vincent is introduced to lucchessi through altobello, vincent finds out that altobello "banked" joey for lucchessi and calls vincent the "hero" that put joey to his grave.....IMO joey failed at his primary goal, which was to get rid of michael, so they understand he's useless now, vincent kills joey and now lucchessi is rid of this useless muscle.

altobello, now under the impression that vincent will work him and lucchessi, decides to take manners into his own hands making him the hero and not taking the chance of relying on another muscle to screw things up a again. he hires an assassin to do the job right, and understanding that mary takes control of immobliare if mike dies, he asks the assassin to "take of 2 stones" to rid the corleone family of any control
DON ALTOBELLO
"You are my ‘ace in the hole,’ as we say in America. I have a stone in my shoe. You can remove it."
MOSCA
"Only one stone?"

these are all theories, it just helps me understand the story more...........remember just opinions

yea, its a too confusing plot, i understand it alittle better, thanks to everyones theories. Your right turnbull, where did altobello come from? why does he want micheal dead? and if he was such a long time family friend he should have been in part 1 or 2 atleast.

Well, it's the same thing as what happened between 1 and 2 - where did Hyman Roth and Pentangeli come from?

Roth had to be written in because Moe Greene had been killed off in GF I. Roth was mentioned in passing in the GF novel but was not a major character - in the GF II movie he becomes a kingpin.

Pentangeli was written in, because Clemenza was written out. That was one disconcerting thing about GF II, all the talk from Michael "I was so happy this house never went to strangers," blah blah, well if Pentangeli was such a great friend and all that, how come he wasn't at Connie's wedding or Vito's funeral, huh?

That's one structural shortcoming of the way FFC and Puzo wrote the GF episodes - at the end of each episode, almost all the Corleone nemeses have been killed off, so in any succeeding episode you have to introduce a whole new cast of characters.

pantangeli was mentioned as being a soldier in clemenzas regime. Roth was known for doing business with vito during the 20's, and was shown in part 2, but the scene was taken out. as for altobello all we know is hes godfather to connie and thats it. So basically altobello came absolutely out of nowhere. compared to the pantangeli and roth.

Was the assassin supposed to kill Mary too? I just thought he missed with his second shot. That changes my whole view of the ending.

i truly believe so.........the first hint comes when vincent and altobello meet where vincent was supposed to betray michael; altobello confirms that even with michael gone mary and the corleone family still can have have full control. then when altobello meets with assassin and says he has a stone in his shoe that he needs him to get rid of, and the assassin asks.."only one?" then at the opera it takes 2 assassins there to handle mike alone...doubt it. just my opinion

I think it was just Michael who was the target. the statement of "Just one?" seemed more like a boast to impress Altobella. There was no advantage to anyone to assassinate Mary. Mobsters kill for mostly business reasons and Mary was no threat to that. And there wasn't really 2 assassins to kill Michael. the son was more of an assistant to make sure the weaponry was there. he didn't seem to be involved in the actual killing attempt on michael.

this is, in my opinion, the biggest flaw of GF3.
both GF and GF2 have a great thing that is one of the best things about them. since the very begginnig of the films, you know exactly who is every charachter. in GF3, this is imposible. I've watched this movie about 10 times, and I still can't remember exactly how is the archbisp called, what the swiss banker did before getting whacked... this is why GF3 is just a good movie

great points, although right before michael is to be shot it almost looks like the son is preparing to shoot.............and the only reason michael was to be shot was because he was in lucchessi's way, if mike's dead, mary is still in lucchessi's way, unless they kill them both

Did they ever really know who ordered the hit on Mike in Part II..was it Fredo and Roth/Ola, or Pentangelli?

Hyman Roth was the mastermind of Mike's assassination, as he had Johnny Ola tell Fredo to betray the family. Roth wanted Michael dead and was the one behind it all along.

By the way let's remain on topic in this thread which is immobiliare.

I don't think Mary was a target for assasination at all. When Vincent goes to Altobello under the pretext of betraying Michael, Altobello asks him if, with Michael gone, Mary controls the business - and also asks Vincent if he intends on marrying her - he seems to be implying that with Michael out the picture the business would fall into Altobello/Luccesi etc's hands, via Vincent who is now "on their side".

Besides, the bullet only hits Mary because Michael ducks for cover.

i dont remember seeing any type of close ups on mike that show him ducking, i remember seeing shots, and a full shot of everyone on the stairs, but i may be wrong..............but as far as mary being the target your theories are starting to make me feel otherwise, i was getting different interpretations while watching. it was just hard to believe that this "ace in the hole" assassin standing 15-20 feet away only hits michael once and in the arm.

Hmmmm.... I could be wrong.... the way I saw it is that the assasin is further down the steps from Michael and to the left (of the steps as you're facing them). He takes aim at Michael, but Mary comes storming up to him to find out why he's ruined things for her and Vincent. The shot is fired, Michael ducks (or perhaps he dives becuase the bullet skims his arm I think) and the bullet meant for him hits his daughter....who was confronting him for interfering in her life.....doubly tragic. Anyway, it's all a bit JFK, but the trajectory of the bullet seemed to be right. Could be wrong of course.

looks like i need to watch it again..............the beauty of this is that 5OO people watching the same movie will have 500 different interpretations

I dont think that Mary is part of the assassination. Once Michael is out the way Mary is at the helm, who would turn to Vincent to (help) run the company. Altobello/Luccesi believe that they have Vincent, and so believe that they run the company.

I also agree that GF3 lacks the strong plot that the other 2 have. I am a strong believer that if they did have Robert Duvall then the film would have been much better, and that there would have been a better story line involved to give it that ingredient the other 2 had.

that reasoning seems to make a lot more sense.i stand corrected
robo

I thought Michael fell from being shot, as he didn't attempt to dive for cover and Mary comes standing in the line of a clear shot of Michael. Also I imagine it's hard to aim with a pistol at night and be within the group of Priests.

I always though Michael did get shot, but the bullet passed through him harmlessly and ended up killing Mary.

there are 2 shots fired........one for sure hit mary...and michael was hit in the arm (i believe)

I liked Pentangeli. I look at him as if he WAS Clemenza. Frankie Five Angels is the perfect substitute for Clemenza. It's like the script was written, with Clemenza as the character, then the actor doesn't agree to the contract, and they simply change the name.

Think about it... it could have easily been Clemenza.

Sorry but I disagree. I had to re-watch Part 1 and Part 2 to completely understand who everyone was and what their motivations are. I pick on something else each time I watch them too. Until recently, I never knew how Vito "knew it was Barzini all along." and I still am unsure why Roth tried to have Michael killed if he was trying to do business with him. The whole business with Johnny Ola, The Rosato Brothers, and lots of other subplots are very confusing to people new with the movies.

And Danny Aiello saying "Michael Corleone says hello," to Frankie before he strangles him, even though Hyman Roth gave the order, doesn't help matters either.

Even in the flashbacks, I wasn't sure who was who. the actor playing Genco looked more like a young Tessio with the eyebrows. And then when they refered to Tessio, I was like, is that a different actor then before?

I think FFC and Puzo assumed that everyone would know who was who, or that they knew that people would come back to these movies because of all the details and subplots.

Throughout the entire series, yeah we might have a feel of the secondary characters, who they are, and what their motives are, but we never fully understand the entire workings of the deals and why they want people dead.

I still don't know who ordered the Atlantic City hit and why...

Part 3 is definitely the most convoluted of them all though, but I still think it's a good movie.

Part 1 - **** (out of 4)
Part 2 - ****
Part 3 - ***

Hey DBCH, you bring up some good points, I think can answer some of your questions though. Micheal only breifly touches on Roth's motive towards the end of GF II. He simply says "Roth thinks he's going to live forever", Michael implies here that Roth is simply power hungry and wants more power due to his arrogent sense of immortality.

Danny Aiello (Rosatto), saying "Michael Corleone says hello," to Frankie before he strangles him, was as another previous post indicates an improved line that FFC kept because it fit with the plot.

This opens up a whole new can of worms to whether it was a botched hit or made to look botched. If it was botch then Danny Aiello's line was delivered to mislead Pentangeli. If on the other hand it was botched, it can be argued that since Roth was the one that ordered the hit on Michael, he was just taking what Mike said at Roth's home in Miami (Mike's comments about how he knew Pentangeli order the hit) as permission to get rid of Pentangeli who was in the way of his desire for power; i.e. in the way of the Rosatto Brother's who were under Roth's rule.

Also in GF III, I have always just assumed it was Zasa that ordered the hit because he left just before the hit after being snubbed. Due to the holes in the plot, it's really impossible to know if Zasa was just an arrogent and ambitious person or was working for Lucchese.

It definatly IMO was Zasa because what FFC and MP do brilliantly in the GF trilogy is make us beleive person A did this and person B did that for these reasons, but it's really person C who's behind them. Person C is usually a manipulator who aligns the person's desires and goals with their's and manipulates the person in a convincing way to do their will.

I think Zaza was working for Altobello, because later when introducing Vincent to Luchesse, Altobello says something like "If we had known he was around, we never would have backed Joey".

This leads me to believe that Altobello is admitting he and Luchesse conned Zaza into the Atlantic City massacre because it would have (theoretically) eliminated Michael and ALL the other dons. Luchesse would then be rid of Michael, and I'm assuming Zaza was promised complete dominion over New York since there would be no other families to go against him (remember, the survivors made deals with Zaza after the hit) except possibly the remains of the Corleone's which wouldn't have nearly enough manpower to go through a real war.

Yeah that does all make sense.

So in Part II, Roth orders the hit because Michael is stalling and because of Moe Green, but that would be taking things personally.

I just never thought that there was any deal going on between Michael and Roth until they went to Cuba... FFC and Puzo should have made their dealings, which took place before the movie began, more known.

Keep in mind one over-arching fact: though Michael says to Fredo, "Roth wants me out," Michael is the one who wants Roth out. Roth and Vito Corleone had been partners, but only in the Prohibition-era booze business, as Roth pointedly reminds Michael several times. But Michael had been greedily horning in on Roth's Western gambling empire even before Vito died. The first business deal we see Michael involved in when he returned from Sicily was to push Moe Green, Roth's best friend, out of his Las Vegas hotel; later he had Moe killed because he resisted. By late 1958, when we first meet Hyman Roth, Michael has moved his entire operation to Lake Tahoe, owns three hotels in Nevada, and is about to force Meyer Klingman out of a fourth hotel, owned by Roth and the Lakeville Road Boys. And it's obvious that Michael has designs on Roth's Havana gaming empire. Small wonder Roth feels threatened!

Roth has been buying time by pretending he's a kindly elder statesman, in the twilight of his years, who regards Michael as his surrogate son and heir. But he's plotting all along to kill Michael—there isn’t room for both of them. He decides to kill Michael at Anthony's First Communion party because he knows Frank Pentangeli will be there, contentious over the Rosato Brothers, whom Michael and Roth favor over Frankie. Thus Frankie has the perfect motivation to kill Michael--and will make the perfect fall-guy for the crime. Even though the attempt failed, Roth is heartened that Michael, as he expected, blames Frankie for the attempt. But, instead of killing Frankie, Michael dispatches him to settle his problems with the Rosatos. Oh-oh! Roth knows Michael would never give an enemy a break, so now he knows that Michael really doesn't suspect Frankie in the Tahoe attack--meaning he could suspect Roth. So Roth orders the Rosatos to kill Frankie, the better to remove one of Michael's allies. The Cuba ploy was another clever plot of Roth's: lure Michael there with the promise of taking over Roth's lucrative gaming empire, meanwhile have his pal Batista assassinate Michael.

Very astute summary Turnbull, it puts the motives in a more complicated and realistic setting.

When does Mike know for sure it is Roth? He goes to Roth and says it's Frankie. Then he goes to Frankie and says it's Roth.

I always thought he was playing both sides against each other, but never knew when he really knew who was behind it all. Was it when Roth went into the whole Moe Green tale?

Your right he plays all sides against one another. He was sure it was Roth when he asked him about the Pentangeli hit and Roth went off on a rant about Moe Green. Although he fully suspected him the whole time, but were never fully sure who was against him.

problems with gf3
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then main problem is that you don't get a sense of who the real enemy is. don luchese and kleinzig appear sporadically, and you kind of forget about them when they are not on screen. altobello was no roth (then again must have been impossible to get someone of the likes of lee strassberg on short notice!). zasa was nearest thing to a decent villain (kind of reminicent of sollozzo).
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the last third of the film seems to concentrate on michaels inner turmoil and the family relationships, especially between kay and michael (and for the most part handles it v well). the immobiliare plot sems to disappear, and when it resurfaces it seems like an unwanted distraction

gf1 and 2 seem to blend these aspects together seamlessly.
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i saw gf3 again recently, and i must admit that it wasn't nearly as bad as i remember it. however, i feel that goodfellas is the real gf3.....the story of what happens to the old values of the mob when the old boys move on!

IMHO Mike knew the Vatican Bank was in deep trouble. He first sets up the Vito Andolini Corleone Foundation and puts 100 million into the Vatican Bank's hands. This gets his foot in the door. With the first 100 million, there was already a tacit understanding between Gilday and Harrison that the Corleones were going to make a move to take over Immobiliare. At the party in Mike's apt. Harrison makes some kind of comment to Gilday about the family having increased its position and that he was worried. Gilday reassures him by saying they already have "an arrangement." Then Michael goes to Gilday and they negotiate how much it will take to get the Vatican Bank to cast its vote to give Corleone control over Immobiliare. He ends up depositing 600 million in the Vatican bank, and thus keeps it from going under. This is nothing more than a bribe to get the vote he needs. The swindle happens in Rome. The deal was always subject to ratification by the Pope, but the Pope died, and therefore Michael was left with a minority share in Immobiliare and 700 million sitting in a bankrupt bank. On the advice of Don Tomassino he then goes to Cardinal Lamberto to tell him the whole sordid story, and of course Lamberto becomes Pope and he does ratify the deal (we learn this during the opera).

One question that has always been troublesome, however is whether or not Immobiliare was really "legitimate." At the meeting in Atlantic City all the Dons are grumbling about how they want to wet their beaks in Immobiliare as well, something Michael refuses to do. During that scene one of the Dons makes a comment about how Immobiliare is laundering money in various countries. If that was common knowledge, then it is dubious that Michael really thought Immobiliare was entirely on the up and up.

Someone should watch the movie again and keep notes regarding the plot to see if we can definitely hammer something out for sure.

It's either that or call FFC at home.

Better start dialing--we'll never know more otherwise.

ME: Hello, Francis? Hi, big fan here. Listen, would you mind taking a long weekend to explain the plot of Godfather III? Some people over at the Gangster BB still aren't sure what to make of it. What were you and Mario thinking? Care to explain?

FFC: Don't call here again. (long pause) Ever.

ME: Captain Eo rocked, by the-

*CLICK*

I watched it again. I will confirm that Anthony DOES say "maybe she's not dead" at the end of the picture, even though it is not in the transcript on this site. Mary does die, and presumably so does Michael, unless that is some kind of dream sequence.