Did Roth Buy Michael's Story?

Much has been written about the "danse macabre" that constituted the dialogue between Michael and Roth, and much of it centers on Michael's plan to kill him. What I am wondering is whether or not Roth ever bought Michael's claim that Frank Pentangeli tried to have him assassinated. Obviously Roth knew about Frank and his troubles with the Rosato brothers, and he backed the Rosatos probably because he thought Frankie was weal and/or he could get Michael to go along.

He also had to know that Frank had been loyal to Michael for years, and to Vito before that. Armed with all this information Roth would have also had to know that Frankie did not understand much about "big deals" and that there was no way he could engineer a complex assassination attempt at Lake Tahoe where he went to get Michael's permission to kill the Rosatos. In truth Frankie didn't know what Michael's answer would be, so he would have had to arrange the whole thing the night of the shooting.

So if Roth wasn't buying it, then each man knew before they went to Cuba that the other was going to try to whack him.

I think Roth completely bought Michael believing it was Pentangeli that tried to have him killed. It's why Roth felt comfortable in having the Rosato brothers kill Pentangeli.

More precisely, it's why Roth felt comfortable with having the Rosato brothers pretend to ALMOST kill Pentangeli.

Michael wasn't even supposed to know Roth was backing the Rosato brothers. Michael simply mentioned that he would kill Pentangeli as a (supposed) courtesy to Roth so he would know what was going on in New York when the Rosatos would gain more power and be a stronger force after Pentangeli's death.

How Roth had set things up, Michael would think Pentangeli wanted Michael to "take off the cuffs".
With Michael supporting the Rosato's claim to those three territories Clemenza had promised them, ordering Pentangeli to give those territories up to the Rosatos (and as a consequence, weakening Pentangeli) Michael could be fooled into believing that Pentangeli was protecting his own interests in New York.

Michael knew better. Roth did not. Roth MIGHT have known better had Fredo told Ola that Pentangeli's meeting with the Rosatos was to hand over those three territories and make the peace per Michael's order.

In the end, Roth did the only thing he could- get Pentangeli out of the way and hopefully make him a pawn to turn against Michael.

My head is sort of spinning with your post but I don't think the Rosatos were just "pretending" when they attacked Pentangeli. It's not like they knew the cop would come in and you can see their surprised, even panicked, reaction. They had every intention of killing him right there.

If they killed Pentangeli, what would Roth gain? It sure wouldn't take Michael out of the picture. And why would they plant heroin on him?
The only way it works is for it to be a fake hit. They didn't NEED to know a cop would show up. Roth engineered the whole thing. Roth could have simply had a cop waiting up the street until Pentangeli and Rosatos went inside.

All the Rosatos would need to know is that they need to keep pentangeli alive, mention Michael Corleone and plant drugs on him. Roth would handle the police/FBI end of the deal.

Hell, it might even be better if the cops DID kill the unsuspecting Rosato brothers so Roth could have a Jew take over the territory. Either way, Roth's gain would only come through eliminating Michael- either by murder or by sending him to jail for a long time. Hence the deal for Pentangeli to roll over on Michael and Questadt to steer the hearing against him.

Roth knew Pentangeli would be at Anthony's party, and would be contentious about Michael favoring the Rosatos over him. So, according to Roth's reasoning, Pentangeli would have a perfect motivation to try to kill Michael--and would make the perfect patsy for the hit attempt that Roth set up.

So, when Michael called on Roth in Miami and said, "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man," Roth had every reason to believe him.
But, when Michael, instead of having Pentangeli whacked, sent him to meet with the Rosatos, Roth knew Michael didn't suspect him--raising the possibility that Michael suspected Roth. So Roth instructed the Rosatos to kill Pentangeli at their meeting. He ordered Pentangeli to be killed in order to remove the Corleones' main ally and muscle in NY--and have his own allies, the Rosatos, take over. At that point, Roth was confident that once Michael landed in Cuba, Roth could use his connections in the Cuban government to squash him.

I believe by the time of their last meeting, both Michael and Roth knew each others' intentions. One of the marvels of that scene is how they held out despite that: Michael to find out who the traitor was, Roth for the $2 million.

Once again: Roth did not engineer Pentangeli's survival to screw Michael. Roth's plan was to lure Michael to Cuba, get the $2 million, and have him killed in a government car on the way home from the Presidential New Year's Eve Party. Why, therefore, would Roth try to engineer an incredibly difficult, incredibly dangerous, split-second-timed rescue of Pentangeli? So that Pentangeli could develop a grudge against Michael and testify against him at a Senate hearing weeks or months after the attempt--by which time, according to Roth's plan, Michael would already be long dead?


And suppose Roth did want to have the cops rescue Pentangeli at the last moment. How would he do it? Call his contact at the police precinct and say, "Hello, Shultz, I want you to send a beat cop to Richie's bar and have him arrive at 3:44 and 25 seconds. Not 3:44 and 15 seconds, not 3:44 and 35 seconds--3:44 and 25 seconds. Got it? Now let's synchronize watches..."

Or, suppose he was lurking outside in a phone booth: "Hello, 56th Police Precinct? Something fishy's going on in Richie's bar. Better send a cop there--but make sure he gets there at 3:44 and 25 seconds."

The only way for Roth to "engineer" the near fatal attempt on Pentangeli's life is that he had only the cop who happened to walk past the joint on his payroll. In this scenario, the Rosato Brothers were probably in on it as well, otherwise Roth would have made a stupidious risky move, because he could have lost his allies in New York in a firefight with the police. Or they could have turned on him instead if they would find out that Roth had betrayed them. The other agents who arrived at the scene for backup could not have been involved in Roth's plan, otherwise they wouldn't have fired like cowboys.

In the end, whatever the plan was, it turned out to be quite a mess.

I pretty much agree TB. I noticed the across the table look that Roth and Micahel gave to each other at meeting hosted by Batista that indicated their antipathy toward one another.

Another thing about the bar scene is how a policeman would not know the Rosatos. He gave no indication that he recognized them. I don't find that plausible in a precinct.

In the case of Roth engineering it they obviously needed to pretend, because Pentangeli could have overheard it, or otherwise the bartender.

Finally, some common sense.

Not plausible in a police precinct where the Rosatos operated. Perhaps they agreed to meet on "neutral ground"--and the bar was in "neutral ground"? Seems likely that Pentangeli wouldn't agree to meet the Rosatos in their territory.

Then why the lie? Why tell Frankie that "Michael Corleone says hello" 10 seconds before he's dead? Why not tell him "That jew in Miami sends his regards"?

There's no sense to it. The only reason to do so is to make Frankie believe that Michael ordered the hit on him. And why do that if the main goal is Frankie's death? That's as much nonsense as Sollozzo telling Luca Brasi that "Vito says hello".

Taunting? I'm not buying it. Especially when it's revealed by Tom later that Roth engineered the whole thing.

Keep in mind that the "Michael Corleone says hello" line wasn't originally in the script. Neither Puzo or Coppola came up with it. Danny Aiello thought it up when they were filming it and asked if he could slip that line in and Coppola said he could.

Yes, but I believe it's because Coppola knew it added to the narrative of the deception.
Aiello obviously knew the reason for the deception. Aiello didn't just say it without a good reason. The reason is Roth pulling a fast one to turn Pentangeli against Michael. This was Roth's "ace in the hole" if things didn't pan out in Cuba.

There was enough in place for Pentangeli to blame Michael anyway (siding with the Jew, taking the side of the Rosato brothers over the territories). Aiello's ad-lib just put a stronger emphasis on that sense of betrayal. It was a great line and I'm thankful Aiello and Coppola ran with it.

Roth certainly wasn't going to simply trust a second assassination attempt when the first one failed so miserably. Roth wanted a guarantee. Pentangeli was it. If Michael DID get killed in Cuba then Pentangeli's testimony would be pretty worthless to the Senate Committee and he would go away for many years anyway and Roth's problems would still be solved.

It was a sure thing. Except Roth didn't plan on Vincenzo showing up to shame his brother.

(Incidentally, though it would be easy to take one's time garroting Pentangeli until the cop showed up, the cop popping in at that particular time is really irrelevant. the cop could have popped in two minutes later or even ten minutes later. The only reason for the cop is to find Pentangeli alive with heroin on him so they can start cutting a deal with him)

And one more thing I just thought of: If the Tahoe assassins were "out of New York", they were likely Rosato buttonmen. IF that's the case (and I'm not saying it is) then the Rosatos killing Pentangeli would only serve as a reward for their incompetence in Tahoe. Roth wouldn't really gain much by it but the Rosatos would. Why would Roth reward the Rosatos by giving them permission to kill Pentangeli? Just a thought.
I would imagine the Rosatos owed Roth BIG TIME for screwing up the hit in Nevada (provided, of course, they WERE Rosato buttonmen)

Roth was behind the attempt and would likely used his own assassins. Probably old members of Murder Inc.

The Pentangeli-Rosato conflict was a local matter and did not involve Michael directly. In fact, Michael supported their claim to those territories in the Bronx and ordered Pentangeli to give it to them. The Rosatos were just pawns in Roth's scheme. They wanted Pentangeli out of the way, and this would weaken Michael's position, which is what Roth intended.

Roth didn't want Michael's position weakened. Roth wanted Michael out of the way- exterminated! (as evidenced by two assassination attempts followed by an attempt to send him to prison [and Pentangeli in Witness Protection] for a long time.)

I don't think weakening Michael was the goal. Eliminating Michael would weaken and fracture the Corleone empire by default.
But Michael was strong and resilient enough that weakening his position by killing Pentangeli would be repaired in short time, I would imagine.

Roth ultimately wanted Michael eliminated, but a weakened Michael would have obviously been an easier target. The Rosatos were opportunists, and even though they had no quarrel with Michael, they would have kept a blind eye if he were to be eliminated.

No doubt. I can't even fathom how easy the Rosatos would have it with Michael out of the way. probably as easy as Tommasino had it after don Ciccio was taken out.

Lively discussion here, but I have one question. During all this pre- Cuba activity, Fredo gets a phone call from Ola in which Ola asks if this Pentangeli-Rosato thing is on the level. How would Fredo know? Maybe they were testing to see if Fredo had become really scared and already spilled the beans to Michael. In any case Fredo cuts the call short by telling Rosato something to the effect that you guys already have me in enough trouble.

I doubt Fredo would know, but since he's (supposedly) their only connection to the Corleone inner-circle, it doesn't hurt to ask. And maybe had Fredo not been such a whiny-butt, he could have called Frankie in New York to find out.

You know DT, I've never bought into what some consider Fredo's role in the family to be despite reference to FBI charts. Thus, I don't see Michael discussing the Pentangeli meeting with Fredo. I certainly don't see Michael discussing his Roth strategy with Fredo.

Why did FFC allow Danny Aiello's ad-lib, "Michael Corleone says hello," to stay in the script. My theory is that it was intended for Richie the bartender, not for Frankie, who was going to be killed. Richie obviously was a civilian, and he was scared ("Anthony, NO-O-O-O!"). The cops would question Richie when they found Pentangeli's body, if the hit had gone according to plan. Richie wouldn't dare give up the Rosatos, so they fed him that line as a way out: "I dunno who the guys were, but one of them said, 'Micahel Corleone says hello.'" That would have sent the cops directly to Michael. And, even though he had an alibi, the newspapers would play it up: "Pentangeli Murder Points to Top Nevada Gaming Mogul."

Good assessment TB. But I still wonder why the policeman didn't recognize Rosato. If Rosato knew Richie, then the meeting wasn't on neutral territory as someone opined.

Good theory as well, Turnbull. (I can't imagine allowing mafia hits to occur in one's bar would be good for business)
"Hey officer, I don't know nuthin'. I just work here..."

Since the cop did know the bartender but possibly not the Rosatos, can we assume it happened in neutral territory?

From the II transcript:

CARMINE ROSATO: RICHIE, give us some, (pants?)

RICH: Carmine, no! No, not here! Not here

The Bartender knew the Rosatos and they him.

Then I guess the scene begs to ask what all did Ritchie know and when did he know it? Was his bar the go-to place for garroting? Is this the same bar that Luca ended up in?

bartenders are known for their discretion in business and in pleasure.


Here I thought I was sure about this scene and now I have to reconsider everything I thought I knew. I still believe it was the intent to leave Frankie alive, based on the earlier script. but that doesn't mean that was necessarily the intent with the finished product....

It's clear that the bartender knew the Rosatos. That doesn't mean that the bar was in Rosato territory. I think it's unlikely Frankie would have gone into the lion's den for that meeting. He hardly trusted the Rosatos.

I've never agreed with TB's theory of the "Michael Corleone says hello" line. They never would have committed a murder in front of someone they thought would give the police any information whatsoever. If they thought the bartender would testify honestly, they'd hardly be safe with him telling the police, "The killer was named Carmine and looked like..., and he said 'Michael Corleone says hello.'"

In any case, I doubt they intended that Frankie's body would be found at the bar, so there would have been nothing to connect Richie to the killing.

That line must be either a vestige of an earlier script or an unusually clumsy device to trigger Frankie's betrayal.

That scene is just as perplexing as who opened the drapes. If the Rosatos intended to kill Frankie, then the line was meant for Richie. On the other hand, I just don't see Richie testifying, so what good was that line. I also don't see any reason to believe that the Rosatos knew Richie unless his bar was in the Rosato's territory. Why would they know him?

The intention of Frankie getting off alive was evident int he 2nd draft of the script. I have a hard time imagining that the dynamics of the Pentangeli hit had changed from one revision to the next. The outline of the story is consistent throughout. Obviously things are trimmed here and there for brevity.

So I find myself believing that Aiello knows this portion of the script and came up with the idea of his line in order to make the new revision of the script make a certain amount of sense. Unfortunately, tagging Aiello's line as an ad-lib somehow renders the whole thing UNclear, rather than clearing it up. Such is the bane of the internet.

MICHAEL
How did they get their hands on
Pentangeli?

HAGEN
Roth engineered it, Michael. He
made Pentangeli think you hit him.
Deliberately letting him get off
alive. Then the New York detectives
turned Frankie over to the FBI. My
informants say he was half dead and
scared stiff -- talking out loud
that you had turned on him and
tried to kill him. Anyway, they
had him on possession, dealing in
heroin, murder one and a lot more.
There's no way we can get to him
and you've opened yourself to five
points of perjury.


I understand that this particular script is not canon while the film is. I don't consider it canon. But I do consider that this script validates and verifies particular motivations behind these scenes. So though the film may not say it, I understand the motivations behind it because of this earlier script.

The second draft of the script (dated Sep 24, 1973) is also the latest draft as Coppola began filming on October 1, and so can be considered canon. I've never checked this scene out in the script. So this proofs that Roth did in fact wanted Pentangeli to remain alive, and so Tony Rosato's line makes perfect sense.

My only question with it is how Tom would know these details:
"Roth engineered it, Michael. He made Pentangeli think you hit him. Deliberately letting him get off alive."

Who in Roth's camp squealed?

Or did Tom have a mind for big deals and just figured it out on his own?

...or did Fredo tell him?

Something else people need to consider is well explained in the link below, i.e. there are no good answers and these were plot holes in an otherwise classic movie.

http://filmwad.com/three-nitpicky-and-ir...sor-5046-p.html

Glad this controversy is getting new attention.

Years ago, someone surfaced an earlier script in which Pentangeli was deliberately spared. It was one of many such plotlines ultimately either abandoned or left on the cutting room floor. I think FFC figured that it would have been too much of a stretch for Roth to have engineered that split-second rescue of Frankie. What's more, it was so much more satifying for Michael to have believed Frankie was dead.and then to discover that he survived--after he'd perjured himself.

"Michael Corleone says hello" might have been left over from the same scene shot under an earlier script. That's happened before. Years ago, some sharp-eyed poster noticed Questadt, the Senate lawyer, sitting behind Roth in Havana when the gringo pezzanovanti were meeting with Batista. I think he also found a script version in which Michael was to have met with Questadt in Havana. Obviously FFC abandoned that plot line. So, why was Questadt left in that scene? Either FFC didn't notice it, or he left it in because all of the Cuba footage was shot on location in the Dominican Republic, and he didn't want to re-shoot the scene and go through all that expense. He just thought no one would notice. Of course, that was before this Board was in operation.

No problem with Questadt still being in Cuba. There were a few high-falutin' bigwigs hanging out there and it must have really felt to Michael that he'd "arrived" to be surrounded by all those "legitimate" businessmen and politicians rather than mafia hoodlums and buttonmen.

I don't think the 'rescue" of Frankie (by the cop) was necessarily required inasmuch as the Rosatos needed to play incompetent at it. Tahoe...Cuba... now Pentangeli in New York...

I swear I can hear Captain Kirk in the background:
"Alright Roth. We tried it your way. You managed to kill everyone else but like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target!"

I really love the idea of Roth engineering the whole thing. Throughout the whole movie they're playing a game of chess. Roth's big move is the "Pentangeli Gambit" which almost takes Michael out of the game and surely takes Michael by surprise.
Only in a last, desperate and unpredictable move was Michael able to make a play that saved his butt. That play was rooted in that whole Sicilian thing- a move that Roth wouldn't necessarily understand (not being a Sicilian and not being privy to Pentangeli's personal life).

I'd say this is why I cling to the idea that Roth engineered it. Because dumb luck just seems a bit out of the Godfather element.

It was probably the same script that was referred to in this thread, which isn't an earlier script, unless ofcourse you can proof that it was. Most of the scenes in this script were filmed, but a lot of material was left out of the final cut as they otherwise would have had a film of five or six hours long.

I think Roth was not so much a strategist or engineer, but a brilliant improviser.

new member here - great site.

I have debated this question about the assault on Pentangeli for years. so i'm assuming that no one contends that Michael actually did order the hit on Frankie - seems unlikely given that the Rosatto Brothers carried it out.

but when Tom said later that Roth "played this one brilliantly, he engineered the whole thing" I have always leaned towards the belief that the intent was not to kill Pentangeli, but to turn him on Michael. why would they have planted the drugs on him otherwise. what purpose would that serve if they were going to kill him anyway ?

Welcome Tenn...this is among the most discussed aspesct of GFII because the prevailing consensus is that the actor who said "Michael Corleone says hello" improvised the line at the time, which, as it turns out proved temporarily fortuitous for Roth. But if you pick the scene apart, the pnly reason Pentangeli was not killed was because the cop happened into the bar which caused everyone to flee prematurely. Strangely, however it seems the Rosatos got away while Frankie and Cicci were caught and brought in.

I don't think the Rosatos got away with it. According to Tom in the penultimate boathouse scene, Roth and the Rosatos were "on the run."

The critical word that confounds people (and prolongs the debate here, as dt reminds us) is "Roth, he engineered this one beautifully." Roth could not have engineered Frankie's survival via split-second-timed appearance of that beat cop. What he engineered, through Questadt, was keeping Pentangeli's survival secret; using Cicci as a stalking horse to testify that he never got a direct order from Michael (making Michael believe that he could get away with perjury--and then dropping Pentangeli on Michael, opening him up to five counts of perjury.

I've said before (though most here don't agree) that Geary was in on it. As a subcommittee member, he had to know that Pentangeli survived. He was the one who specifically asked Cicci if there were always "buffas" between Cicci and Michael, setting up Cicci's reply--"No, I never talked to him"--that made Michael confident that he could lie under oath.

In the screenplay it is confirmed that it was a set-up aimed at turning Pentangeli against Michael. So this is how Puzo and Coppola intended it to be.

As for Geary, he was trying to discredit Cicci as a reliable witness as a favor to Michael. His speech about the Italian-Americans that followed made that quite obvious.

His speech reeked of hypocrisy, especially after the "oily hair/silk suit" slur he laid on Michael during Anthony's party.

I buy TB's minority view on Geary. Consider:

1. Willie Cicci openly admitted to Questadt that he was a "button" i.e. that he killed people when he was ordered to do so.

2. He then told Questadt that he never got an order from Michael, but he confirmed that Michael was the head of the family.

3. At that point Geary interrupts Questadt and asks Cicci to "amplify" his answer and the back and forth about "buffas" ensues.

What is going on here is a tag team approach by Geary and Questadt. If Geary wanted to stay under Michael's thumb he would have excused himself for his other committee meeting, and made his speech about how we should not judge all Italians by "a few rotten apples" without getting Cicci to admit there were beffers between him and Michael. The buffer of course was Pentangeli, and Geary had to know that Pentangeli was alive and ready to testify.

Being savvy, however, once Geary did this bit of dirty work, he leaves the scene to give himself some cover in case things with Michael do not go as planned. On theother hand, if they do, and Michael is fighting perjury counts, the blackmail against Geary is worthless. Some allegation about a past incident with a hooker -- that had been covered up --
would not fly if it came from the camp of a perjurer. It would look desperate, and Geary would be useless to Michael.

It may well be that all Michael ever wanted from Geary was to move Klingman out and cut Geary out of the profits, which he'd already accomplished. Still Geary damaged Michael in that hearing but gave himself enough cover by leaving the proceedings to defend himself should things come to that. N.B. Michael did not include Geary in his plan to wipe out all his enemies.

Geary's embarrassingly condescending rant about Italian Americans,at first glance, would indicate that he was still under Mike's thumb because of the hooker incident at Fredo's place. As we find out,Fredo was more involved with Roth than originally thought,i.e.,he knew about the Senate lawyer being "Roth's man".
Could Fredo have tipped Roth to the fact that Geary was compromised? Roth then would have had two ways to go.
1)Instruct Questadt to keep Pentangeli's existence secret from Geary until the last minute to let Geary (unintentionally) bury Mike.Seems unlikely.
2) Get the word to Geary that he (Roth) knew about the hooker (from Fredo),and that this was a chance for both of them to put Mike away,and eliminate any credible evidence of the hooker murder for good.Seems feasible
Personally,I don't think that Geary,or any member of the Committee,was unaware of the fact that Pentangeli was going to appear. Don't forget the scene where the Chairman goes ballistic about the affadavit from Pentangeli that they had prior to the hearing.So Geary puts on the show for Mike,ducks out,figuring that Five Angels will take care of his "Corleone problem". Geary was stupid,Mike was lucky.

Either way,I don't think any conclusion can be drawn from the fact that Geary wasn't killed later on. After all he was a Senator,and the heat would have been incredible.

I think option 2 is the correct one. Keep in mind that Fredo knew Pentangeli was alive and that Questadt belonged to Roth. He had to have obtained this information well after the attempt on Michael's life, which means he kept in touch with Roth and Ola. He probably did tell them how Geary had been compromised, and I am sure Roth would have seen to it that Geary be in on the plan to set Michael up for perjury. A word from Questadt .."Senator, my friend in Miami can take care of any of your troubles with Michael Corleone. We'll establish that Cicci killed people when he got orders to do it, and then you do what you can to give rise to the impliction that Mr. Corleone
was the head of the family. Once you've done that you can leave the committee to handle that other matter."

On a related subject, the ongoing relationship between Fredo and Roth would have been further reason for Michael to have him killed.

Also I wonder if Roth and his people had a hand in getting Fredo out of Cuba. Fredo was certainly no genius, but somehow he apparently made it to New York. When he got there maybe the Rosatos took care of him.

Knowing about the Geary-Michael connection would have made it very risky for Roth to tell Geary about Pentangeli.

While dt's scenario is plausible, I think it would be equally likely that Geary would have used that knowledge to barter a truce with Michael, leaving Roth with no weapon against Michael.

Also, Fredo knowing about Questadt does not necessarily mean that Fredo continued a relationship with Roth. He might have met Questadt through Roth or Ola before the Tahoe hit.

I think that Geary and Questadt both thought that the legendary Hyman Roth would never be outfoxed by someone like Mike,and consequently hitched their wagons to a dying horse.
Geary probably figured that he was better off with Roth knowing his little secret,and that he could go back to doing business with "decent Americans". Roth would make the "incident" go away,keep Geary on the payroll,and go merrily on his way while Mike did his perjury(and who knows what else?)time.

Although it is fun discussing this thread,my gut instinct is that FFC just wanted to show Geary as still under the control of Mike and wanting to keep Mike happy by giving his little speech. In my opinion,much like the drapes,and "Michael Corleone says hello",this is one of those things that just went into the final cut with no further thought.

Gotta love it,cause where would be without this kind of stuff to pump up the board?

Yes. In addition to making that (fatal)outburst against Michael in the boathouse, Fredo revealed that he knew Pentangeli had survived, and that Questadt belonged to Roth. Michael had to figure that Fredo could only have gotten that info from Roth--and that Fredo had deliberately withheld that info from Michael, even though revealing it before Michael's testimony might have rehabilitated Fredo in Michael's estimation.



I posted on that subject here:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...true#Post472494

The post you referenced TB seems perfectly logical. One question...obviously Fredo had called Tom ahead of Michael's return to Nevada. Wouldn't Tom have been curious about Dredo's detailed knowledge of Roth's escape, and why wouldn't he have told Michael. It is clear when Michael tells Tom to get hold of Fredo to tell him he could return to Nevada, that he was misled, etc., that Tomm had been informed Fredo was the traitor, and in league with Roth. It seems, however Michael and even Tom never connected the dots. Not until Michael tstified did Tom give Roth credit for engineering this so well. Is this another case of Tom not being a good wartime consigliere?

Maybe. Or maybe it is a combination of things. When Michael returned from Cuba he seemed a changed man. He was less analytical, and had a short fuse. He went about insulting Tom about not giving him straight answers, he saw his family was coming apart at the seams. It is possible Michael didn't see the whole picture clearly and it is possible Tom may not have broached the subject as a hypothetical simply because he was afraid Michael would not be receptive to batting around half baked ideas.

Well, that whole scene is a bit curious, dt:

When Michael asked Tom where Fredo was, he replied: "I think he must be in New York." You or I would have immediately asked: "You think he's in New York? How do you know? Did he call you? What did he say?" But Michael didn't. All he said was for Tom to get word to Fredo--confirming that he accepted that Tom knew where Fredo was.

Another anomaly: Michael was frantic to get Fredo on the plane with him out of Havana. And, the first thing he hammered Tom on when they were alone was, "Where's Fredo?" Michael could have arranged for Fredo to be snatched from whereever he was hiding out, and brought to him. But he didn't. After that scene in the Vegas hotel room, the fire seemed to have gone out from under Michael's urgent interest in Fredo.

Perhaps you're right: Michael might have been slippin'. If he'd grabbed Fredo immediately, Fredo might have told him about Pengangeli's survival and Questadt's beloning to Roth.

What's even more curious is that he sent Rocco and Neri out of the room. By this point they were no longer suspected of being traitors, and they had to have known about the Roth business, and even about Fredo's treachery -- after all it was Michael who later gave Neri the signal that Fredo was to be killed. I could see Tom meeting Michael one on one to give him hte news about Kay, but it was Michael who send R & N out of the room, not Tom, and at that point he had no clue about the "miscarriage."

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