With more training?

I know something like this was just discussed, and probably has been discussed before, but this question has been nagging me all day. If Sonny were to have lived and got more training from The Godfather, say the same kind of training Michael recieved, could Sonny have become a great Don?

Ace

PS: Be gentle on me if this question has been posed many times....

If Sonny had lived, Vito would have had more time to tutor him. Sonny may have continued to fight a long drawn out war, but eventually would have succumbed to Vito's orders, and the top priority would still have been to get Michael home safely. Sonny would have never defied Vito. The plan still would have been to show weakness to the other families, and then strike. However I think that Sonny would have been the boss, and Michael either Sonny's consigliere or underboss. And if Sonny were alive then the attempt may have been made on his life with a setup by Fredo. But the difference would have been that Sonny would have beat the shit out of Fredo, and never would have had him killed. And if Michael would have advised Sonny that Fredo should be killed, then Sonny would have beaten the shit out of Michael also!

However I don't believe that Sonny would have become a "great" don. As our friend Turnbull has pointed out many times in the past, Sonny was a good street fighter during the time of war. he was good at street guerilla warfare. But as far as being a Don who would have to be cunning, one that would have to make unhasty decisions, and one that would at times need to be diplomatic in handling certain family affairs, I don't think that he was that kind of person. He was too hot headed and therefore his judgement would have become clouded because of his habit of acting and responding in haste. Therefore I don't believe that he would have made a great don.


Don Cardi

First of all welcome to the BB Ace. I know you will enjoy it here and make good friends.

I agree with you DC on what you said except for 1 thing. I don't believe that Fredo would have made an attempt on Santino's life. Due to the fact he wouldn't have felt like he was being stepped over as he did with Michael. But we will never know

Excellent point Mig. Now that you said that, it makes me remember what Fredo said in his rant to Mike about being stepped over. Had Sonny lived and become Don, Fredo being stepped over would have been a moot point because Sonny was the older brother.


It's fun to speculate on the "what ifs" in regards to The Godfather Trilogy.


Don Cardi

Sonny could never, ever become a 'great' Don...wouldn't have mattered if he'd lived another 10 years, with all the tutoring in the world from his father.

Vito may have eventually been able to teach Sonny to reign in his temper, and conduct business in a more professional manner. But you cannot be 'taught' to be a great anything...you have to have it in you.

Nobody taught Vito...he had it in him.

Even Michael, successful as he became...was not a great Don in the sense that his father had been. Not even close.

Personally...I think even if he'd managed to outlive Vito, Sonny would've been only moderately successful and eventually been knocked off by insiders with higher aspirations for themselves and the Corleone Empire (but NOT either of his brothers...).

Apple

Ace, Welcome! You pose an interesting question, and, as you can probably tell by now, we don't mind discussing all the different aspects of the Trilogy ad infinitum.

I've always thought that if Sonny had lived, Michael would still have had to murder McCluskey and Sollozzo to save his father, so he would've been involved in the business. But I've always thought that the two brothers would've shared the crown, if that's possible. I can't believe that, given Michael's ruthlessness and thirst for power (not to mention his ceaseless need to control everyone and everything), that he would've been satisfied with Consigliere. I've always thought that Sonny would've stayed in NY and continue to run the gambling and drugs.

Michael, representing the legitimate side, could have then moved Kay to Nevada and pursued the casino business. I can imagine a very powerful and frightening bicoastal Corleone Family, with two very strong leaders on each end.

And, although this is a bit off-topic, I agree with DC that Sonny never could've ordered his brother's murder. While Fredo might not have needed to set up Sonny, in the scenario that I envisioned here, I can see him still resenting his little brother moving in on his Vegas fiefdom and taking over.

I agree with this point, Michael was like his father in many ways, but he made some bad decisions in the end that he thought were good and protecting his family, of course he was wrong.

DC thats awesome what you said about Sonny beating the shit out of Fredo, that is so true.

And yes it is awesome to speculate about all the "what-ifs" in the GF Trilogy

Ace

It probably would not have been. Not only would Sonny not want to 'share the crown' with his brother or anyone else...Michael would not have wanted it had Sonny lived.


That 'ruthlessness/thirst for power/need to control...' was something that evolved and emerged over a period of time, in response to circumstances around him. Even Michael himself deftly explains that to Kay in one of the few decent scenes in GFIII. Again...had Sonny (and Appolonia) lived, a far different man Michael would have been.

And...I don't see how he would've been 'consiglieri' in any case. Take over from Tom??

Again, questionable (and I'm being polite). Sonny was not and never could've been a 'strong' leader.


He wouldn't have had to. Because he would not only have beat the shit out of Fredo...he would've taken it a step further and killed him himself.

But we do all agree that with Sonny as Don...Fredo would not have gone down the same road of betrayal that he did with Michael (who of course in the business sense...was completely justified in ordering Fredo's murder).

Apple

I believe that Sonny was a lost cause--and Vito knew it. Sonny had many years of direct training under the Don--more than Michael had. Sonny was about nine years older than Michael. Sonny was learning the ropes when Michael was in knee pants. Michael rejected the family business, went off to college and to war--and Sonny was still at home, at the Don's side. But Sonny was...Sonny. He was a limited man. Vito knew it. Notice how distracted Sonny was in the opening scene, when Vito taught Bonasera a powerful lesson about loyalty. (Vito afterward whistled and said, "Did you learn anything?") He was equally distracted when Vito taught his lesson to Johnny Fontaine (because the Don had interrupted his little tryst with Lucy). Sonny munched almonds while Tom discussed the Sollozzo meeting. Sonny blew it at the Sollozzo meeting; Vito said that the "comedy you play with that young girl is making your brain soft" (or some such). And on and on.
In the novel, Vito flat-out despaired of passing the reins to Sonny because he saw that Sonny did not take to his lessons. At one point the novel says that Vito needed to find a successor soon because he wouldn't live forever. Sonny himself told Tom, after Vito's shooting, "I know I'm not the man Pop was. But short term, I'm as good as anybody (or some such). Clearly Sonny wasn't a slam-dunk for the job.

I agree that Sonny was not the man Vito was, and that Vito knew it. Still Vito does pay him a compliment when he says that Tattaglia could have never out fought Santino (which was later followed by the tomment that he thought Tom wasn't a bad consigliere, but that Santino, Rest in Peace, was a bad don).

The problem with Sonny is that he never would complete the on-line Don training course he was signed up for. In that course there is a specific module about phoney phone calls that get your sister beat up and how to respond.

When you consider that fact that he also noted Tattaglia was merely 'a pimp', along with his revelation that Barzini had been behind everything ... it's really not that big a compliment to Sonny.

Apple

here is where i make my money on this board...

had the corleones taken the deal sonny would never get whacked, mike never has to become to become don and fredo is still alive along with the rest of the corleone children.

yes the UNITED STATES would have sunk deeper into drug addiction and yes the 6 families would have been ruined by the FBI....HOWEVER....sonny lives, mike doesnt have to take over as don and fredo stays alive as well.

am i wrong???????

...and we have NO story, NO book, NO movie, NO trilogy and NO message board.

Sounds like a plan to me !!

Incidentally...what makes you think Sonny lives and Mike doesn't have to eventually become Don. What makes you think even with the drug deal...Barzini doesn't want a bigger piece of 'Corleone' pie down the line?

Sonny was Sonny. He was no good 'long term'. His carelessness, stupidity and temper (not to mention lack of wartime consiglieri) would've gotten him whacked eventually, no matter what the circumstances.

santino was whacked by barzini, the fbi would have tried to throw him in jail. i'm not saying the corleones would not have been ruined, but sonny still lives and mike does not die a lonely man in sicily.

yes the story sucks, but i am simply trying to present the alternative to this MYTH written by puzo. and it might mean that most of them end up in jail, but atleast the don does not have to bury one of his children.

we love this story, we love that the don saw this as an epic struggle and he did his part although it was a helpless cause. but im a corleone like u, and i wish we could have all lived happily, as a family, for a 100 years.

RIGHT???

What makes you feel the Don doesn't have to bury one of his children? If it wasn't the drug deal refusal, and then the attempted hit on Don Vito to enable the drug deal, and then the hit on Solozzo/McClusky and then the war, etc....it would've eventually been something.

Otherwise, there would be nothing.

It's the business they've chosen.



Apple

???
if the don takes the deal we have no blood shed between the families.

Not this time...



Apple

you or someone else will have to enlighten me. b/c if the don takes the deal i could not possibly imagine why there would have been blood shed between the families.
that would screw up the deal that the main man(vito) has now approved of....right????