Micheal never forgave Tom...

..for Sonny's death.

Agree or disagree and why?

Well didn't you say that Mike trusted Tom and had love for him? You're confusing me now LOL

Erm...yes I did.

This thread is to ask what other peoples opinions are. Care to offer yours or are you content making smart-arse remarks?

No I leave the smartass remarks to the OP. Anyway my opinion is that resentment didn't have a whole lot to do with it. I think by Part II Mike became so paranoid and evil that he didn't trust or care about anyone. Hell even his own son wanted to be with his uncle more than his old man so that tells you something. also tom was very loyal but got shit on so maybe he fealt taht mike resented him sor Sonny's death

I tend to agree to the ones who say Michael was jealous of Tom's relationship with Sonny and possibly even Vito, but I think Michael's jealousy was limited and he did respect Tom.

I'm not sure if Mike really blamed Tom for Sonny's death. I don't see this in the films and I forgot how this exactly is being told in the novel.

I never said Mike didn't respect Tom. I just think he treated him like shit sometimes. Son ny and Vito had better relationship with him for sure. The reasons I say that mike wasn't jealous was because even jealousy requires emotion and by part 2 mike had no real emotion

I agree.


For me, there isn't even much reason for Tom to be blamed. It was Sonny's own hot-headedness that ultimately caused his demise. Vito seemed to realise this and for me theres no reason to suggest Micheal was any different.

This thread isn't to address the question of jealousy between Micheal and Tom - theres enough of that in the other thread.

This is specifically to discuss wether or not Micheal blamed Tom for Sonny's death, and wether or not he 'never forgave him' for this.

I realize that and I have answered that question I was responding to someone else's post ok. So just shut up

Touchy aren't you?!

I pointed that out because there are 3 threads at the moment all about Tom and Micheal. It would be nice to keep this one on topic and not be cluttered by discussion that we have already had.

Have you?

Did he blame Tom or not? Did he ever forgive him?

No i'm not touchy but you should be a little nicer and polite to posters and you would get a better reaction. Just a thought LOL. Also i post what the topic is about and i may add a comment so it's not a big fucking deal dude

Hurt your feelings did I? Diddums.

No man I don't give a flying fuck. And I guessing your a fa***t from the diddums comment. I mean expected that but I guess I know now lol

What makes the Board's threads so vibrant is what we infer from and what we believe is implied by the novel's and the films' words and actions.

There is nothing in the novel or films by which Michael's specifically blames Tom for Sonny's death. But Michael's behavior toward Tom was undeserved for any other reason than the misfortunes that the Corleones had suffered while Tom was Consigliere especially Sonny's death. As Tom admitted to himself, he had been faked out by the Five Families timidity, something for which Genco would never have fallen.

I agree olivant. I also don't think Mike was jealous or blamed him for sonny's death. I just think his paranoia and his thirst for power made him kind of an asshole. But its hard to post your opinion in this thread lol

What exactly are you referring to when you say 'Micheals behaviour towards Tom'?

Then we can analyse if it was 'undeserved for any other reason than the misfortunes the Corleones had suffered while Tom was consigliere'.

Ask your father.

My father died in military service? But I do know he fucked some broads in his lifetime

While Board members are expected to post strong opinions, try mollifying the language that is used when doing so. You can make your point and gain respect from Board members without using foul language. Give it a try.

I agree i never want to use that language I just want to post in a civilized manner

JCrusher, take note.

I already acknowledged that. i guess I got a little upset since you mentioned my father who has been dead for a a long time now

Lol, your language began before your father was even mentioned.

Try again.

Dude can we forget this now. lets stick to the topic. Oh and i can see why you like Mike now I mentioned my father being dead and no "i'm sorry to hear that" statements

You two guys: cut it out! Take it to PM's if you have issues with each other,and let's keep this interesting thread civil.

My view:
I don't think Michael literally blamed Tom for Sonny's death, but I think he resented the fact that Sonny's death in effect forced him into becoming heir-apparent.

People don't always act logically. Logically, Michael could have walked away from the Donship. Logically, it was Sonny's rashness, not Tom's failure, that caused Sonny's death. But I think Michael put the two together and built a resentment for Tom.

Michael told Tom, "You're not a wartime consigliere." He was right. In the novel, Tom admits it to himself ("Old Genco would have smelled a rat..." after Sonny's death). But, consistent with Michael's character, Tom was Sonny's choice for brother, and Vito's choice for consigliere--not his.

I agree Turnbull. i just wanted to discuss the topic. hopefully more people join in. Like i said before ll this crap I don't think Mike had an agenda with Tom. As Mike got more into being the Don his relationship with his family strarted to get strained

Homophobes don't get my sympathy. Some of my best friends are 'f******' as you so eloquently put it.

Someone is cursing LOL

Ok, I'll leave it alone.

The bit in bold is a very good point. The rest of your post is well put too, you seem to be suggesting atleast some slight resentment from Micheal towards Tom. I'd agree with slight resentment but I think saying 'Micheal never forgave Tom for Sonny's death' is too strong.

Well considering Mike never forgives anybody for anything I wouldn't put it past mike to hold a grudge on Tom. I just think taking tom out of the loop turned out to be a bad move. tom was not a sicilian but he was a smart guy and considering how Roth played Mike like a fiddle I think Tom might have counseled mike on it. I'm not sure if he would have but we'll never know

I don't believe that Tom would have figured out Roth's plan - he never figured out Sol/Tatt/Barz schemes.

Ya ur right vito did

TB is one of the oldest and brightest Board members. So, his opinion can be highly respected.

I would add that Michael saw Tom, overall, as failing to protect the family. Afterall, that failure did not result only in Sonny's death, but Vito's near death. It's pretty common for peole in leadership positions to view someone with skepticism once that someone has made a mistake. A death and a near death would alter Michael's view of Tom in that way.

I'm not sure I agree, but if Micheal did see Tom as having failed to protect the family, then I'd say it was an unjust view. Personally, I would have blamed Sonny and Fredo a lot more for Vito's near death, and concluded that Sonny's death was caused by Sonny's own weaknesses.

Would you agree that it was unfair for Micheal to blame Tom?

Well, only in the sense that negative outcomes are usually the result of several variables or people, not just one. But, as the novel states, Tom reproached himself for Sonny's death: "He would have to tell the man he most loved in the world that he had failed him, that he had failed to guard his domain and the life of his oldest son."

That's an interesting perspective, TB.

In this instance I believe some of the other variables were far more telling.

Its only natural that Tom would blame himself in some way, but that doesn't mean its right. Vito probably blamed himself for Sonny's death too.

I think even Michael could have blamed himself for Sonny's death. It was his idea of killing Sollozzo and a police captain which set the sage for a war in which Sonny was killed. If he didn't go to Sicily, he could also have talked some sense into his brother.

I don't know about Mike blaming himself. Vito and Tom I could see because Vito brought him into the mob life and Tom couldn't stop him from driving to his death. Like I said before its hard to see Mike take responsibility for any of his mistakes

Exactly, any one of them could have found reasons to blame themselves but it wouldn't neccessarily be true.

Michael was a sociopath. He probably did blame Tom for the Corelone's downfall. Michael thought he was a genius.

I agree, in II he is a bad Consiglieri he is not on top of things as he should be : he has to learn from the papers the news about Roth extradition and Pentangelli betrayal goes unnoticed below his radar until it is almost too late. Had the Senate kept quiet about the surprise witness Michael would have fallen big time.

Tom was a fair analyst but a bad forecaster, and my take is what Michael resent is his actual performance (Rocco and Neri have to fill in some gaps) and because of this Mike no longer mantains a minimal courtesy and treats him like a lackey. He even remembers him as an antagonist in the final flashback.

Michael never blamed himself for anything. It wa all someone else's fault. Even his life of crime he tells Kay in III was merely the result of his trying to "protect my family from the horrors of this world."

I don't see any evidence in the film that he blamed Tom for Sonny's death. in III he tells Vincent that Sonny's temper clouded his judgment, so maybe he blamed Sonny for Sonny's death.

I think Mike was a little peeved that Tom knew about the abortion and thought that Kay and Tom could have possibly been in cahoots. After all, Tom did have someone on the side.