Who ordered the brothel hit?

I was just interested in your opinions about who ordered the hit on Geary's whore in Fredo's brothel in Part 2. The actual hit takes place after Michael had made Tom the Don, so it leads one to think the Tom could have ordered it. Of course, after Geary's little speech at Anthony's First Communion, you also have to assume that Michael had plans for the Senator, so maybe Tom was just carrying out orders he had previously recieved from Michael.

I only ask because knowing who thought up and ordered the murder is pretty insignificant if it is in fact Michael who does so. However, if Tom is indeed the mastermind I think it adds an interesting dimension to his character. Having served within the Family for all those years, he obviously had to have been involved previously with some sort of violence, but we never see it in the movies. The only time Tom shows any inclination toward violence is when the target is a horse. Every other instance in the movie where Tom is discussing possible violence, he is trying to convince his Don to maintain peace. Two examples would be Sonny against the Tattaglias and Michael against Roth in the boathouse. Conjuring up and ordering the brothel blackmail shows that maybe Tom wouldn't have been as bad a wartime consigliere as Michael previously thought.

First of all, I never really thought of thought of the killing of the prostitute as a 'hit'. But it's true she was done away with for the sole purpose of setting up Geary, so I guess that's what it was!!

Second...yes it's been discussed on the BB before and it would appear that it was indeed Tom who set the whole thing up. It may have been discussed with Michael that something would have to be done with the Senator, as they definitely needed him in their pocket after the Communion 'meeting'. But Tom probably arranged the setup after Michael had already left for Florida.

(Lucky break I suppose, that Geary happened to conduct his 'private business' at Fredo Corleone's whorehouse.)

Third, no matter how you slice it, Tom was calculating and cunning and a great lawyer, but definitely NOT a wartime consiglieri. Sonny's murder pretty much proved that.

Apple

Let's go back to GF1 for a moment. Remember Woltz and the scene with the horse's head in his bed? No one "ordered a hit" against a horse. It was a warning, a wake up call so he would know the far-reaching power of the Corleone Family. The murder of the prostitute was a warning to Geary just how powerful Michael was. To think Geary had the nerve to ask for $20000. for a gambling license! As to who killed the girl, I've always thought it was probably Neri, although no one knows for sure. But did you notice how he was hovering in the background in the shadows and Tom Hagen motioned for him to leave the room. And wasn't he drying his hands? Makes me think he was washing them for some reason --- perhaps to get rid of the blood?

Hagen wouldn't have ordered that hit on his own, especially since it involved the entrapment of someone very important (Senator Geary). See this thread:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006113#000000

As Tom was 'acting Don', a position bestowed upon him by Michael Corleone himself...he most certainly would have been in a position to not only set up the sting of Sen. Geary, but also to order the killing of the prostitute who just happened to work for Fredo, just happened to be Geary's favorite whore, and just happened to have no family.

And...of course it was Neri who actually killed the girl, and who probably drugged Geary as well.

Not that anyone's asked...but I'm sure it's clear to all that the reason we even see Neri is so that the audience knows for sure that it was indeed a Corleone setup, and that Geary really didn't kill the girl during some sort of blackout.

Apple

I must disagree with you on this one Apple. My thinking here is that BEFORE Geary met with Michael and acted the way that he did, Michael had already put a plan into action on how he would get Geary to cooperate with the Corleones just in case he refused to at that meeting.

Something tells me that Michael knew, before his meeting with Geary, that the Senator frequented Fredo's brothel. Michael, like Vito, always made sure that he had background information available ( like Vito finding out about Sollozzo before meeting with him) before meeting with someone that he would be negotiatiing with.

So my feeling is that Michael, knowing the Senator's reputation before hand, found out about his infidelities before that meeting and had already put this plan in action just in case the Senator would play hardball with Michael, as he obviously did when they finally met.


Don Cardi

Sure, why not.

A

Don't you agree with my assesment of Michael and his careful planning of things and his forsight of putting a backup plan into action before hand?

You have to admit that it makes more sense than thinking that Tom and Neri threw this whole plan into action after the Geary meeting, during all the confusion that took place after the hit attempt on Mike.


Don Cardi

I don't necessarily agree or disagree. Unlike other GF topics, I don't consider this one worth debating. Your assessment is certainly a reasonable one, so I'm happy to go along with it.

Apple

Apple, have you caught the Tony Soprano "epiphany?"



Don Cardi

Only this time.

Watch somebody get started on Fredo again and you know I'll go on for days!

Apple

Well, being that you brought up Fredo, wouldn't it make sense that he was also involved in this plan to get Geary? After all it was his brothel that Geary frequented, and therefore he had to be the one to inform Mike that Geary was a regular customer of the brothel.

BTW Apple, I have to give credit where credit is due because you've finally came into the 20th century by reading The Godfather Novel, but have you completed your journey by getting HBO so that you can now watch the Sopranos?


Don Cardi

Yes, absolutely.

And he also drugged Geary's drink, killed the whore, and called Tom.

Having already opened the drapes and gunning downt the would-be assasins, it's clear that he was perfectly capable of all of this.

Neri was there only to clean up.

Apple

Hey, he's smart, he can do things. Not like everyone else says. He's not dumb, he's smart.

However, I still say that Fredo didn't know.


Don Cardi

I only read the novel because you gave it to me, a wonderful gesture of friendship for which I am forever appreciative.

When you call my cable company to have HBO installed and then agree to pay the extra premium per month, then I'll be happy to begin watching The Sopranos.

Ol' Buddy, ol' pal.



Apple

And I agree.

You always seem to get me & SB mixed up on that topic!!

Apple

No I don't. I'm fully aware that the lady who sat next to me at dinner that night was on my side during that debate.


Don Cardi

There's a character named Fredo in The Godfather??

Turnbull, thanks for the link. I don't know how I missed that thread before?

I had always assumed when watching the film that Michael was the mastermind behind the hit, but when watching it on AMC the other night, the thought hit me that maybe it was Hagen. I would agree that it was Michael in charge. There's no way he was letting Geary get away with talking to him like that, and with his superfreak, controlling personality, there's no way he would just assume Tom would take care of it.

No one ever said that Tom ordered a "hit" on Khartoum, but he more than likely was the one who came up with the idea of using the horse to get to Woltz since he is the only one present. I only brought that up because that is the only time we see a ruthless side to Tom in either of the movies.

As far as who actually killed the prostitute, of course it was Neri. That was one of the few details about GFII that was made quite clear to the audience. I was referring to who ordered the hit, not carried it out.

It seems to me, if memory serves me correctly, not only in the novel but also in the GF1, the Don met with Luca Brasi sometimes to "personally instruct" him what to do regarding certain matters. It is only my assumption (and speculation) that Michael met secretly with Neri to instruct him how to handle certain matters. Makes sense to me that if only 2 people knew, there was less chance of someone else finding out. Neri was Michael's man to the end, make no mistake about that. Omerta, omerta, omerta. We'll never know the real answer, as this is all speculation and supposition. Only Puzo knows all the answers, and he's not talking.

The only times Don Vito and Luca 'met' in GF (the film) were when Luca paid his respects on Connie's wedding day, and when Vito gave him orders to approach Sollozzo...which of course, led to the end of Luca.

Apple

I'm not saying you're wrong, Jimmy, but I always inferred that it was the Don's idea to kill the horse. In a deleted scene, Tom meets with the Don, who says, "Tell Luca Brasi to see me, I think we're gonna find a way to reason with this Mr. Jack Woltz." I believe that Luca reported to the Don directly, not through Hagen, so I infer that the Don told Luca to kill Khartoum. Of course, the Don could only have learned about Woltz's affection for the horse after hearing Tom's account of his meeting with Woltz, but it may not have been Tom's suggestion to do the deed.
The novel more than implies that it was Vito's idea. Vito questions Tom minutely on the meeting, then gives him detailed instructions that leave Tom "dazed with admiration" for Vito's cunning. "There was no doubt that Johnny would get the part," in Tom's mind, after getting his instructions from Vito.

What's possibly confusing about the 'Khartoum' thing is that from viewing the film alone, one might get the impression that the killing took place overnight upon Tom's departure...and that Woltz wakes up to find the head the very next morning!

In reality (fictional reality that is), a couple of days probably go by while Tom returns home, informs the Don of Woltz's refusal to cooperate, lets him know about the prized horse...and THEN Don Corleone sends somebody back to Hollywood with orders to make Mr. Woltz an offer he can't refuse.

Apple

I'm going to offer a different possibility that Tom was responsible for devising the killing of the prostitute and setting up Geary. And this is the reason for the hypothesis: Michael gave Hagen complete control while Michael went to meet with Roth and later Pentangelli.

One of the undercurrents in GFII is the deteriorating relationship between Tom & Michael. It is really discussed in detail in the alternate GFII script . But before the meeting b/w Michael & Geary in the alternate version, Hagen discussed how to set up Geary:

HAGEN: "I've cleared it through the Senator's chief aide, a man named Turnbull. Turnbull's a heavy gambler, and into us for over a hundred grand, so I figure his information is reliable."

"The Senator can be set up; but he thinks of himself as a clean politician. So it's got to be on terms he can live with: campaign contribution, donation to a charitable cause that he controls, things like that. If he gets even
the inkling that you think you're buying him, he'll freeze up. Nevada's a funny state, they like things both ways here... All right. Turnbull says the Senator will be here at two-thirty, and he's been primed. He knows you'll want to meet with him alone, and he knows it's about the Tropicana's license. At any rate, he expects to be introduced around to some of the influential people here today, and generally treated as an ordinary guest. Just go light on him, Mikey, sometimes the biggest crooks don't like to think of themselves as crooks..."

Michael glances at Hagen, as though that last remark was
unnecessary.

HAGEN: "I'm sorry; of course, you know that."


Then, in the release version, we see the repurcussions of Hagen's misinformation:

MICHAEL: Turnbull is a good man.

GEARY: Let's forget the bullshit, I don't want to stay here any longer than I have to. You can have the license
for $250,000 in cash, plus a monthly fee equal to five percent of the gross...

Michael is taken aback; he looks at Hagen.

GEARY: ...of all three Corleone hotels.

Hagen is frustrated; all his information was wrong.


I think this exchange between Geary & Michael, when amplified by the alternate scene, is the groundwork for the reasons why Tom directed that Geary be set up with the prostitute. Tom was losing his stature within the Family and was certainly losing Michael's trust (if Hagen had not lost it already). As we see time and again in GFII, Michael was so paranoid that he really trusted no one. His little speech to Hagen after the shooting "You're the only I can completely trust..." was just to massage Hagen's ego.

So Hagen devised a way to get back at Geary and, hopefully in the process, reacquire some of Michael's trust and respect. Upon Michael's return from Cuba, Hagen could have told Michael: "Look, we don't have to worry about Geary any more. Here's what I did."

I can see this happening much in the same vein as Rocco volunteering for the suicide mission in killing Roth. There have been discussion on these boards that Rocco felt threatened by Neri's rise in power and Rocco volunteered to whack Roth as a means to win back Michael's favor.

The "hit" on Geary's prostitute took time to arrange just like any hit would take such time. Remember, Geary said that "we had done this before", so obviously there was the opportunity for the Corleones to know about the Senator's habits not to mention that conveniently he apparently frequented one of Fredo's brothel's where he may have been "comped". Because of the time involved, it is probable that Michael had discussed options with Tom before and after the Geary meeting. No, I can't believe that Tom would have attempted to arrange the blackmail of a US Senator involving murder on his own regardless of his temporary "Don" status.

I don't know about that. While of course not capable of actually committing murder with his own hands, surely as a member of the Corleone Family for virtually all his life, Tom would have no trouble acting upon such an opportunity. I always note the way he coldly and callously explains to Geary that the girl had no family and that it would be like she 'never existed'. And the delightfully evil gesture of wiping his hands as if to say, 'That's that...!'

While of course there may have been a discussion with Michael on a way of getting Geary in their pocket...I think that once he was named Don, Tom could certainly have ordered the girl's murder to get to the Senator.

After all, she was 'small potatoes'.

Apple

Don't worry. I took your post the way you intended it, TB. My post was more directed towards whomever it was that posted no one ordered a hit against a horse.

It was me. I was just trying to point out some parallel story lines from both stories. All these questions (to which there will never be concrete answers) gives one pause to think what might have happened. Just speculation which leads to interesting and stimulating conversation.

Not be beat a dead horse but I noticed something interesting while reading the GF film reviews posted by Christina in another thread. After Johnny cries and whines to Vito in his study, Vito tells him to relax, he'll have the part in a month, but Johnny retorts that they start shooting on the movie in a week. That doesn't leave Vito a lot of time to "reason with this Mr. Woltz." From what Turnbull quoted from the novel, I believe that is was Vito's idea to get to Woltz through Khartoum. Like Apple states, the movie makes it seem like the head winds up in bed the very next morning after Tom leaves, but that might not necessarily be the case.

That being said, with only a couple days to work with, would it be logical for Tom to fly out to California, fly back to New York, make plans with Vito, then have someone from the family fly back out to California? The true answer, which Apple will surely point out, is that it is a movie that doesn't have to make sense so anything's possible. Normally, I'd agree with her, but for some reason, I'm feeling speculative this morning. If chopping off Khartoum's head was in fact Vito's idea, could he just have had someone out in California do the deed, rather than a Corleone soldier? Wasn't the Molinari family that guranteed Fredo's safety in Vegas stationed in California? If Vito trusted them enough to protect his son, I'm sure he trusted them enough to chop off the head of a horse.

Apple,

If I don't get an "Oh boy we may have finally figured out exactly how the horse's head got chopped off, now I can die in peace" reply, I'm going to be more than a little disappointed.

Not so much that, but as others have stated in past threads on various topics...what happens in the movie and what happens in the novel do not necessarily always match up.

Apple

Yes. And another possibility: Vito was influential enough in the Hollywood unions for Tom to guarantee that Woltz would have no labor problems if he gave Johnny the part. Presumably he could have used his influence with the unions for them to apply some muscle to the horse.
But in the deleted scene, Vito says to Tom, "Tell Luca Brasi to come in. I think we're gonna find a way to reason with this Mr. Jack Woltz." That line tells me it was Luca who did it--after a decent interval. (The novel notes that Luca was quite a man with the axe.)

This is just an incidental observation that doesn't further the topic at hand , but since we've temporarily sidetracked onto the subject of Khartoum and the circumstances of his death, I thought I would post it.

While I was watching the Saga on TV, the scene of Tom meeting with Vito and Sonny is inserted after Tom returns from Hollywood. After Vito hears what Tom has to say about Woltz, he says, "Call Luca Brasi. We're going to find a way to reason with this Woltz." Then the scene cuts to Woltz's mansion and shows his "rude awakening."

Immediately after that, the movie cuts back to Vito, still in his living room, his head tilted contemplatively, as he resumes his conversation with Tom and Sonny. I thought that was a very odd point at which to insert the Woltz scene because it almost appears as though Vito took a moment to "day dream" his ideal Woltz intimidation scenario, instead of actually carrrying it out in concrete reality. It's as if Vito momentarily lapsed into a fugue state until Tom and Sonny's words brought him back into the present. (I know "fugue" isn't quite the right word, but it's the closest psychological approximation I can think of.)

It would have made more sense to have Vito, Tom, and Sonny finish their discussion (even though it focused on Sollozzo in its later stages), THEN break to a new scene (which would indicate a new point in time) showing Woltz discovering Khartoum, and THEN break again to a slightly later point in time by showing the Sollozzo meeting. All this made me ponder about whether FFC employed a different editor to put together The Saga. The Godfather is generally not an "interiorized" film; i.e., it doesn't visualize for us the interior thoughts of its protagonists. The only exceptions are Michael's reminiscences at the end of GF2 & GF3 (and saving the technique til the end like that was masterful, as it heightened the impact of the tragedy). Maybe this editor wanted to show us "what Vito was thinking," but cutting the scene that way was kind of out of step with the overall tone of the film.

A tiny flaw, anyway... but I digress. All in all, the scene does show us, as Turnbull noted, that killing Khartoum was Vito's idea .

Ya think ???

What's your address?


Don Cardi

I thought we're all living in the 21st century .

Ah, I think I see what Don Cardi means. Reading The Godfather (along with watching the films, of course) means you have completed your requirements to be culturally literate in the 20th century. To move to the next step of becoming a citizen of the 21st century, one must experience The Sopranos.

I guess I'm really antediluvian: not only don't I have HBO to see The Sopranos, I also do not own a DVD player. I have to view The Godfather films on VHS tapes ! PLUS I've forgotten almost all of The Godfather novel since I last read it 17 odd years ago. Is there hope for me?

Well, at least I have a computer . I think I'll check out the library's online catalogue to see if The Godfather is available to sign out. This might get me to the 18th century yet .

Thanks for the gesture, but don't bother...from what I've been hearing, this is supposed to be the last season anyway.

Once it's finally finished, they'll probably start rerunning on Lifetime or the WB11...just like with 'Sex And The City'.

Send the cable guy to Christina's Way...she seems to need something to write about.

Apple

No dvd player. Ok.

No HBO. Ok.

Not owning the Godfather Novel and being a member of these boards? UNEXCUSABLE! AN INFAMIA! (please talk to her Apple)

You have until the end of the month to aquire a copy of the novel. After that, then you'll have to appear before the gangsterbb commission and show cause.







Don Cardi

Save it for da lieberry.

Which I was planning to do until one fateful evening in September, 2005

Apple

At first, I had a blithe Fredo-like attitude after reading that. "Meh, what can they do, bring in my long lost brother from Sicily?" Then I saw your photo of the commission members:



Those three in the front look like they mean business, especially the one in the middle with his arms crossed. I can expect no mercy. I better get that book pronto .

BTW, from my browsing the boards (but mostly from following the link to the photos ), I've come to recognize that the three men in the front row are Don Cardi, Geoff Malta (the big boss), and SC. I'm curious to know if the other people in the photos have user names on this BB (just so I can attach a face to the name). In the first photo, I think one of the women is The Italian Stallionette (I'm guessing from viewing another photo on that site where T.I.S. was identified). Do the others have BB user names?

Of course, if they are "civilians" (non-gangsterBB members), I don't want you to post their real names. But it does raise this question: What are civilians doing on the commission?

2005 BB Get-Together

CW - If you check out this thread from General Discussion, you'll find out who all of those in the photo are. Pages 10 and 11 have the most photos.

Who is that DOG with the dark brown hair ???



Man, I hope she doesn't show up for dinner in August...talk about losing your appetite.

Apple

Thank you for the link, SB . As I perused it, I had a sense of déja vu; and then I realized its source: Don Cardi provided that link in one of his posts about 5 or 6 months ago, shortly after I joined this BB. There was so much material there (it's a 19-page thread, remember ), that I think I became overwhelmed; and as a result, I didn't at first recognize some of the people in the above 2 photos. But it's all coming back to me now ...

From reading your link 6 months ago, I of course remember what you (and Mr. Babe) look like. Don Geoff is also very recognizable. I used to get Don Cardi and SC mixed up; but now that I've seen their pictures a few times, I'm finally getting it straight that SC is the one with the mustache (and Don Cardi is the one with the temper -- especially toward waiters; I hope at this year's GanagsterBB, the restaurant remembers to thaw the desserts ).

Although I think I can now accurately identify who is in the photos, still need some help. SB, tell me if my guesses are right:



l to r: Right off the bat, I'm stumped; I don't know who that distinguished looking fellow with the beard is. Does he have a BB user name? Next, is Don Cardi, followed by... I'm not sure, but SB, is that you? If I look closely, I see a pair of glasses. Next is the partial head of someone who I believe is Lori (I've seen her often in photos with Don Geoff; does she have a user name on this BB? Maybe I've debated with her and not even realized it). I believe that the next person is TIS, then Geoff, SC, and someone named Don Sicilia, whom I don't recall encountering on these boards (so I don't know if I've had the pleasure of arguing with him!)

Next picture:



l to r, back row: OMG, is that Apple? She looks so Italian. Because of the Kay avatar, I had a totally different picture in my mind. I was expecting her to look like... well, Kay. Next is Lori; then Mignon's daugher, Becky (who turned quite a few heads, so I've read ), and Mignon. The people in the front row, of course, need no introduction.

How did I do?

BTW, I must comment on this photo from the link you provided:



As soon as I first saw that photo 6 months ago, I noted that Mr. Babe looks just like a man who used to work at the same place of employment I did. All the gals working there had a crush on him . I wonder if Mr. Babe has the same problem where he works.

If we all looked like our Avatars then I'd like to set up my niece with Sicilian Babe!!

Christina's Way...good thing you weren't around yet when I was using Brando for a while!

Apple

Ah, that brings back memories. When I first joined these boards 6 months ago, I kept referring to Sicilian Babe as "he" (until she corrected me).

... and she also graciously set me straight about MaryCas before I could further embarrass myself .

To Don Cardi:

I was nervous about the prospect of appearing before the commission.

But then I realized that since the commission members are so benevolent in nature toward each other ...



... then surely they will be compassionate with me.

And if the head of the commission conducts proceedings in this relaxed attitude ...



... then I have nothing to worry about.

By the way...how does Lori always manage to get behind somebody and end up with half her face cut out of the photo???

We shall have to get her front & center at the Philly session.

Apple

Not always.

With Mikey Montana (courtesy of Sr. Vitelli)


One of my favorites.... with JG and DC


And with Vito - before he "turned"

From the left: Thats Mikey Montana, who has yet to post although he's been a member for two years.... Don Cardi, LDV (LaDolceVita), Lori who is registered here as Consigliere's Lady, TIS, Geoff, me and Don Sicilia (who is known as Douche in the sports threads).

Thank you, SC...for sharing those MUCH NICER photos of 'Consigliere's Lady'!!

Apple

Uh, I think Vito's a goner after last night...

Apple - If anyone is getting their hands on my avatar, it's going to be me, me, me!!!

CW - Yes (sigh), I have to hear from my husband's female coworkers about how terrific he is, how lucky I am, how they all think he would make just the "best" husband...

TB - Well, they sort of left it up in the air, didn't they? I must agree with your estimation, though.

CW-

I really hope you can come to a commission meeting. You will have a great time. August 18-20 2006

Where is the commision meeting?

Philly

Thats not too far for me... hmm.. will have to think about this some more...

A big thank you to SC for posting the identities of the people in the photo, along with user names and a bit of posting history . Now when I read about the 2006 Gangster BB meeting and see all the digital photos, I'll be even more clued in .

(I also see that I mistook someone else for Sicilian Babe; oops. It was the hair colour and the glasses that threw me... plus, the photo was taken at night and from a distance. I'll just have to flip through more photos from this site if I want to hone my I.D. skills .)

Christina, I don't agree. I think the scene you describe was in perfect sync. It was a way to illustrate Vito's reach even into that faraway world. It was also a way to illustrate Vito's concept of reason which you might remember from the novel was described in some detail.

So, that's what Apple looks like. "Angelo, you got her mugged and numbered up there? Good. Go!"

...or, dear old David Chase will simply make him disappear without explanation, like the Russian in the Pine Barrens.