Tahoe Shooting Question

Yet another question on the shooting.

Why did it take so long for the shots to start flying? I mean, Michael had time to casually walk in, find the picture that Anthony left on his pillow, stand in front of the window while Kay asked him about the blinds, etc. before he ducked for cover at the precise moment the bullets started flying. Could the assassins have been more incompetent? I mean really, he would have had a bullet in his head the minute he stepped in front of the window! And was a machine gun really the best weapon available? I guess it was if they wanted to alert the entire compound to the shooting.

These things have always bothered me about the shooting scene.

MAybe they wanted a clear shot, because they'd only have one chance, and that came when he was facing out of the window AFTER he did those other things.

...plus, FFC needed time to set up the drama in that scene--finding the picture, Kay asking about the drapes...

Exactly. For the professional assasins we must assume were out there, Michael need not have had time to pour a drink and even pause thoughtfully for however few seconds it was after Kay asked about the drapes. That is probably NOT how it would've happened in 'real life'.

But again, real life not always as entertaining as fiction. Which means Turnbull's explanation makes the most sense...dramatic effect and buildup to the shots.

Well, there are so many things that we don't know about how FFC saw that scene playing out.

Also, Michael would have reacted to the flash of the guns before the bullets reached him.

if you look closely at michael's face, his eyes and expression reveal to me that he saw something/someone outside the window a spllit second before the shots.... Go back, check it out!

Yes, that's what I posted above. Light travels immensely faster than a bullet. He saw the muzzle flash.

What I find curious about that whole affair is the aftermath when Rocco(?) states that he doesn't recognize the dead assassins, that they must be out of New York. Now, given the number of Mafiosi hitmen and similar associates not to mention the number of other ethnic hitmen, how could anyone think they would recognize them?

All great points Oli! i was expanding on your comment, however i think even though light is much faster than a bullet, i doubt anyone, even a war veteran can react (duck) fast enought after seeing "reating" to the flash from the gunfire.......Therefore i think he may have seen something, notice in the scene his face/eyes react before the gunfire, quickly realizing (maybe from being a war veteran) what was going on giving his body time to react to the fraction of a second ater seeing something/someone, Just My Thoughts Guys..... Any Opinions?

So can anyone tell me how to get those little qoute windows in my posts? Faily new user, sorry.......

Yes. And if, as is likely, the assassins were using submachineguns (fully automatic weapons that fire pistol rounds, usually either 9mm or .45ACP), the bullets are just slow enough that a guy with great reflexes could duck when he saw the muzzle flash and barely get out of the way.


Probably more sloppy writing--unless Rocco somehow was aware of Michael's stormy meeting with Pentangeli and inferred that Frankie was behind the shooting and used his own men, some of whom Rocco might have recognized.

You have to click on the 'Quote' link in red at bottom of the post you are responding to.

Thanks Apple!!!

Of course he did...it was his cue.
Remember it is a movie.

Yes. And if, as is likely, the assassins were using submachineguns (fully automatic weapons that fire pistol rounds, usually either 9mm or .45ACP), the bullets are just slow enough that a guy with great reflexes could duck when he saw the muzzle flash and barely get out of the way.




Not at that close a distance. Even if it was a small caliber round with no surpresser you are on the lite side of the glass room it is hard to see out. If you see the flash you would be dead already.

"assassins were using submachineguns (fully automatic weapons that fire pistol rounds, usually either 9mm or .45ACP)"

Most .45 spray or jerk low to high when fired in full burst mode. We always noticed how they show a dozen shots so close to each other in that mirror, without the glass just shattering into a million pieces. Must be super thick backing-

Well said, fs (you are apparently on a roll today)!!


If it were NOT a movie, Michael would've been dead before Kay even had the chance to notice the open drapes.

It has been discussed many times that the person who says this is not Rocco and listed as a button in the scripts, it always comes into play if Rocco was part of everything.
With so many people on the compound during the affair the first thing you would think of ... was it someone who was there for the party. Then you have to think about how many guests / people are still on the compound grounds following the party.

How tight would things have to be to keep things in check with so many people there.
Not so good if they got so close to Michael's personal bedroom. Or on the grounds at all.

Do you really think that FFC would let such a blatant "cue" into the movie? Am I to believe that Al Pacino 'though still a young actor' was not showing his brilliance as an actor to portray such a dramatic "look" as just a "cue"? I disagree, there was clearly more going on there than just 'sloppy' editing......

I always took the "look" as the characters seeing something/someone also

And in this dicussion we come to that conclusion, furthering my original teory of michael knowing much more than portrayed in the film...... "If what I think has happened, has...." going into the whole Rocco connection theory about the shooters and his involvement with the conspiracy to 'hit' Michael, whew! This wouldve been great as a novel also!

At this point all Michael "knew" was that there was a traitor in his family, otherwise those shooters would never have gotten onto the grounds. He was also correctly assuming that the shooters were already dead, and that he would get no information out of them.

The look in Michael's eyes just before the shots are a lovely credit to Mr. Pacino's acting. But let's face it, in all reality the shooters had ample time to get him if that is what was supposed to happen. It's a movie, the assasination was SUPPOSED to fail, therefore Michael lives to retain his power, prevail over Hyman Roth and discover Fredo as the traitor.

And yes, Kay's questioning the drapes WAS a cue to turn Michael's and the audience's attention to what was about to happen.

That's just how movies work sometimes. And even when it's as obvious as this, it doesn't take away from the overall quality of the story and the film.

I'm glad you pointed that out, Apple, because it's also affirmation of how Michael knew, almost instantly, that Roth--not Pentangeli--was behind the attempt. Frankie was too unsubtle, too uncalculating, to have recruited a traitor in the family, to have found unidentifiable shooters, and to have arranged their killing--all the while getting drunk at Anthony's party and mouthing off to Michael. At that point, Michael couldn't have ruled out Neri and/or Rocco being complicit in some way, or Fredo having contributed by stupidity or inadvertence, but he knew Roth was behind it.

Well, if I were an experienced Mafia don, I think I would be able to figure out certain things or, at least, to reasonably speculate about them. I don't think Michael had to stretch his intelligence to figure out who was behind the attempted murder. I would have suspected Rocco or Neri long before I suspected Frankie.

Apple,....Apple open your eyes.....there was definitely more to this than "just a movie" FC/PUZO are to brilliant to just "make a movie" Of course Michael knw way before "II" actually started, he didn't just "wake up" and go from clueless to knowing what was going on, after the assntion attempt, c'mon We're discussiong a well put together novel that unfortunately was only made to a film......

That's about as far as I can open them.




Of course, there is much more to talk about in GF and GFII than in an average, run of the mill movie - otherwise the Gangster BB wouldn't be here. And I enjoy a good discussion as much as anybody.

But it IS just a movie and there IS such a thing as overexamining a scene, especially one that has one too many obvious flaws such as the Tahoe shooting. Sometimes it's just more fun to suspend reality, ignore the mistakes and unanswered questions...and get on with the rest of the story.

guess i messed that up

you win, you win Apple. For the sake of this Forum I concede.....

Here, I fixed it for you...

You mean you're not...???

Thank You Apple, I am forever in your debt.......

Good.

Some day, and that day may never come, I'll call upon you to do a service for me.

But until that day - accept this as a gift on somebody's daughter's wedding day.

Hey Apple,
I got the wash tub and four bags of cement...
where is this guy you want to sleep with the fishes?.....

All very great points Apple, As Always, along with Turnbull's post directly after this post of yours that i'm replying to,.......'fatherson', I am most likely the one you got the cement ready for..... However! I just had a hypothesis to add to my theory about why Michael wasn't shot dead right away, and DID see the shooters a fracion of a second soon enough for him to react. Here goes....... The shooters were running at the 'window/target', could that be the reaction? They couldn't have hidden themselves close enough to the house/window to "wait" for the right time. They had no idea when he was going to be in his room(besides other conspiracy theories not discussed in this post). Therefore the shooter would have had to waut from "afar" to wait for their chance....make sense?

Any hypothesis can 'make sense' if you want it to enough.

But honestly, the reason Michael Corleone wasn't shot dead right away is that that would've basically put Roth in charge & ended the film.

Nearly everything Michael does after that scene is a direct result of the the Tahoe shooting and his quest to find out why it was able to take place (i.e. who the traitor was that enabled it).

We don't know what kind of automatic weapon was used. However, an M16 has a range of at least 1,500 feet. So, yes, the shooters could have concealed themselves in the bushes and still peppered their target with quite a few bullets in just seconds. I still say that Michael saw the muzzle flash which keyed his reaction. Of course, he could have seen some movement of the shooters too.

But Apple's right (here I go again). The movie had to continue, so Michael avoids the hit.

NO!

That's obviously the main reason. I real life, Michael probably would have been dead or severly wounded.

But it isn't unplausible to think that the shooters were hiding from a distance. It's not like they could just stand there and wait for Michael to appear without getting seen by the intense surveillance of the compound.

Well of course it isn't.

That is a given.

But as long as we insist on entertaining 'hypotheses':

Has it dawned on anyone that Michael would not have needed to see a 'flash' or visual of any kind to suddenly know he was about to be a target? That even if he did, there would have been absolutely NO time to react due to the speed of the bullets? That after a mili-second of thought he would know exactly why the drapes were open and then immediately hit the ground?

Are you speaking from your vast experience on the battlefield?

No, just hypothesizing.

Apple, Apple, Apple, Apple, Apple -- I wanna be reasonable with you. You can post here on the Board with your Board family. You won't be deprived of expressing any opinion. Just don't hypothesize.

Apple, if you don't listen to me -- and hypothesize -- you'll disappoint me.

I'm trying to be nice to NickGeraci.

I know it's out of character but he seems like a pleasant enough fellow.

Don't you......AGREEEEEEEEE?????!!!!!!

NO!

No. The reason that Michael wasn't shot dead right away is that FFC wanted us to develop silly stuff like drapes-opening-theories.

Yes...and don't we all feel guilty for making him wait 30+ years to have this dream fulfilled.

Damn the drapes! Re make the film with Rolladen Shutters.

Why not remake the film and make a horror movie out of it. It were evil spirits who opened the drapes.

Thank You Apple,......someone appreciates me, and i promise I'm not M. Winegatrner in disguise....lol

Well, even if you were I wouldn't be afraid to let you know that your GF book sucked.

Thats for sure...

which one you ask?

Both of them, You aren't afraid to let him know
and the book sucks. GAY ALFREDO...

Umm sounds like fatherson is really letting his emotions control his reasoning, Tsk Tsk.

(he really thinks I'm M.W. folks.......) lol

Apple,
I think we are going to need some newspapers here.