Keep their honour

What does hagen mean by "Families keep their honor" when informing Pentangeli of his task ahead (At the FBI Barracks) ? Does he mean that Pentangelis brother will not get whacked (or injured) by the corleones if Pentangeli kills himself? Or does he mean that Pentangelis brother will be taken care of (in the traditional sense - e.g. financially) if Pentangeli kills himself? Whatever is meant, Pentangeli seems very relieved with this solution.

Not only Pentangeli's brother, but also his wife, kids, his operation ....everything he had would be taken care of and he would be considered to have died a loyal soldier to the family. It was a good break for him and he took it.

I believe that Hagen used the "family honor" idea with Frankie's brother at the Senate hearing (he said in Italian, "The honor of the family is intact" or something like that). He was explaining to Frankie's brother (who didn't speak English) that Frankie hadn't broken omerta after all, thereby preserving the "honor" of their Mafia tradition. I don't think he used the word "honor" with Frankie during their meeting on the Air Force base. But, as dontomasso posted, honor was implied: Frankie had not only endangered Michael, he had dishonored their "tradition." By committing suicide, he'd redeem himself (and by implication, protect his entire family from vengeance). As dt said, it was a very good deal for Frankie, who had nothing to live for anyway.

Absolutely, TB. Hagen tells Vincenzo Pentangeli that the honor of the family "sta posto", which in Sicilian means, as it should be, or that everything's okay. Then when Tom visits him in prison, they talk about the "old days" and the how the structure of the family was based on the Romans. Frankie then alludes to the families of traitors being taken care of if the traitor would commit suicide. He is asking Tom if that Michael will do that if Frankie eliminates himself, and Tom promises him that he will, all without ever saying it. One of the best scenes in the film, IMHO.

Yes SB, but it is even more subtle. Tom sort of leads Frankie into remembering it was he who devised the levels of the family according to the organization of the Roman Empire. Then Tom gives Frankie a hypothetical and in a typically Scoratic and lawyerly was asks him what happened to certain people when a plot against the emporer failed. Before he responds Frankie wants to be sure of the "offer Tom" is making and he says something like "yeah, but that was only for the big shots." Tom leads him to think he would be so considered, and then Frankie talks about how they would throw a party and commit suicide, and by doing so would keep their lands and possess. At the end of the conversation Tom makes the unusual gesture of shaking Fankie's hand and says you've got nothing to worry about Frankie Five Angels, and thus the deal is struck.

A final point would be that it isn't just based around the family being taken care of etc. but also the topic's title , i.e they (Pentangeli family) would keep their honor. If Frank had gone through with breaking Omerta, his family would be forever thought of as disgraceful and it would leave a infinate effect on his family's name for all the years to come. At least this way he could preserve the honor of his family's name, which I'm sure to him was more important (or as)as the financial aspect

Pippi

I guess coming from Aweden means I don't have the same concept of 'honor' as we see in Mafia films, martial arts films etc... This makes perfect sense now.

Thanks all for your answers to this and and the other questions I recently posted. The answers have been very interesting.

does Tom speak Italian that well?

I thought he was 12 when he was being "adopted"... and wouldn't sonny and michael and fredo speak english with him?

Somewhere towards the end in boathouse, michael talks to tom in Italian in the presence of Neri and Rocco. I guess tom must have known some italian.

I think he was fluent in it. He was a smart man and also spend his childhood around Sicilians.

The honor of the Pentangeli family had to be saved at all costs. "Fari na bedda fiura" which means "to put one's best foot forward," is a must in the old world Sicilian tradition. Keeping the honor was really the main interest as far as the Pentangeli name went, back in Italy. There was sense of pride and honor that was attached to Pentangeli's brother and his family back in the old country. Had Frankie followed through and testified against Michael, he would have "lost face" which would have caused his Brother and the family to "lose Face" also. There is an old Sicilian proverb "Cui perdi la bona fama, perdi tuttu" which means "He who loses his good reputation, loses everything."

Frankie being an old school mafioso, knew all of this and therefore once he saw his brother at those hearings, he immedeatly realized that if he went through with it, his whole family honor would be destroyed and his brother's honor and reputation in the old world would have been finished also.

Remember what he says to Tom, about his brother, in the army base scene?

He could of been big here he could of had his own family. TOM -- what do I do now?


That, to me, can only mean that his brother had a big reputation back in Italy, and in all likelyhood was a well respected Mafioso in his own town.


Don Cardi

May sound like a stupid question, but what about the family honor if you turn against a fellow Mafioso and kill them? For example, instead of testifying against Michael, supposed Pentangelli had him killed instead. What about the family honor then? If he succeeds, then he's obviously the Don. If he doesn't, then he's a dead man, but would his brother lose honor in the same way? It's just something I've never understood. How can testifying against someone be worse than killing them?

Now that is an interesting question. As I thought about it, it occurred to me that there are (at least) two different types of betrayal in mob life, each with its own code of punishment:

(1) Breaking omerta, which involves divulging mob confidences to an outsider (a non-mafioso), giving that outsider the power to punish and capture a mobster. In that case, you are betraying not only the mob family to which you belong, but ALL mob families, since you are jeopardizing their livelihood.

(2) Then there's the treachery from the inside, such as what Tessio committed, which involves turning against your own mob family (to side with a rival or to increase your own power).

If Pentangeli killed Michael (or had him killed), then he's a traitor (as in category #2). Michael's people would avenge his murder and exact the punishment of death. Pentangeli would not be allowed to plead or negotiate; and his civilian family would certainly NOT be taken care of . In fact, they may become targets as well, particularly Frankie's brother Vincenzo, since he's already an established mafioso.

However, despite mulling on all that, I realized I'm not any closer to answering Jimmy Buffer's original question. I hope veteran members who are more versed in real-life mafia can chime in and help me. If Frankie breaks omerta, his family is disgraced; other mafia families in Sicily will no longer deal with Vincenzo's organization. I also got the impression from GF2 that these families can also attempt to kill Vincenzo because of Frankie's violation. I wonder if the consequences for Vincenzo would be the same if Frankie's sole crime was to betray Michael à la Tessio (by siding with a rival family and/or attempting to murder Michael). In that case, would other mafia families consider that to be the equivalent of breaking omerta, or would they look on it as an individual mistake on Frankie's part and not let it affect their dealings with Vincenzo?

Actually, what Frankie says in response is, "...But their families Tom, their families were taken care of."

Apple

"Regicides" in the Mafia are about money and power, seldom about honor. The reaction of others (including people who could harm Frankie's brother) likely would be to assess the situation in terms of how it affected them--not in terms of "honor." Frankie would take the risk, and either reap the reward or suffer the punishment. His brother likely wouldn't be affected, unless he actively aided Frankie.

But a big-time Mafia guy like Frankie turning rat would definitely be regarded as an affront to "honor" by other Mafiosi of the era. They'd get up on their high horses and howl for his blood--and probably his brother's, too.

But to net it out: "honor" my ass! They'd be anxious to kill Frankie (or his brother) simply as a matter of self-preservation: if he ratted out Michael, he might rat them out, too.

dontomasso's got it right. Frankie's immediate response to Tom is to close all loopholes; so the first thing he says is, Yeah - but only the big shots, Tom (the actual dialogue uses the words "rich guys"). He then goes on to say, "The little guys -- they got knocked off and all their estates went to the Emperors. Unless they went home and uh, killed themselves -- then nothing happened." Only after that does he utter the sentence, "And their families -- their families were taken care of, Tom."

The main thrust is that, while Tom speaks obliquely, saying how the Corleones were like the Roman Empire and what happened when a plot against the Emperor failed, Frankie exhibits more courage and turns the conversation to the realities that must be faced: Yeah, I know about the Roman Empire, and the automatic protection for the rich guys. But to Michael Corleone, I'm a little guy... and I know what's required of little guys. It's as if Frankie was voicing the part of the conversation that Tom wasn't yet able to express, which adds to the scene's poignancy.

Oh, yeah...I forgot about that. Somewhere in there he mentions the warm bath, cutting of the wrists and bleeding to death...as he later does to himself.

My mistake.

Serves me right for not watching on AMC last Sunday.

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