Frank is Innocent.

Ok, after my last watch, I’m more convinced than ever that Frankie didn’t deserve to die. Kicked out of the family interests yes, but spared his life. He wasn’t a traitor, he was forced into everything. He is a husband and a father and his choices were none

Lets look at the facts

1) Frankie Five Angels, a highly regarded capo-regime, who has served the Corleone’s faithfully way back from Vito’s day well into Micheal’s run. He has succeeded Clemenza in New York and hasn’t done a bad job running things even though the rest of the family is on the other side of the country. He is getting squeezed by the Rosato’s who belong to Hyman Roth. He attends Michael’s son’s holy communion with a hope to getting a word with his don and getting these matters straightened out. He has come all the way from New York, and this gesture is appreciated by Fredo…but not by Mike.

2) Michael doesn’t want to see Frank, not until very last. Michael would rather talk to Gardner Shaw than him. Pentangeli is understandably pissed to made to wait and thus he has a few drinks…what else can he do? Just why Mike is leaving Frank till last isn’t explained. During dinner, Frank STILL hasn’t been seen by Mike, and by now, he’s a little drunk and he wonders aloud just why this is the case. Frank is a capo-regime, he can speak out in this fashion, just as Tessio and Clemenza questioned Mike at the end of part 1.

3) Frank can be seen as a good man, incapable of betraying the Corleone’s by the way he plays with Anthony.

4) By the time Mike FINALLY sees Frank, he’s totally drunk and the conversation is not as it should be. Frank lays into Mike’s treatment of him, and then moves onto the issue of The Rosato’s and Roth.

5) Frank wants to know why Michael has permitted the new york end of the family to be squeezed by the Rosato brothers, and why he is conducting business with Hyman Roth. Mike’s explanation is glib, and he refuses to allow a hit on the Rosato brothers. Mike says he has business with Roth, who is responsible for two men harming Corleone family interests

6) Frank then says he wants to run his family without Michael on his back, but Mike says that his family still bears the name Corleone and he’ll run it like a Corleone…even though at the end of Part I, he promised Clemenza he’d get to break off and have his own family when he moves to Nevada. Mike then patronizes Frank by calling him a ‘good old man’, and ordering him not to take any action against the Rosato’s. Frank leaves this meeting unsatisfied…but bound to Mike’s orders

7) The attempt on Mike’s life is carried out and Mike visits Roth in Miami. From this meeting, the viewer is led to believe that Frankie actually carried out the hit attempt…but Frankie – drunk – would never have been able to organise such a thing in such little time, and if he arranged it beforehand, then why bother seeing Mike at all if he knew what the answer was going to be. Mike knew it wasn’t Frank, and Roth knew that Mike knew it wasn’t Frank, and Mike should have known that Roth knew Mike knew it wasn’t really Frank…but he doesn’t, and he is dumb enough to tell the wily veteran Roth that Frank is a dead man.

8) Mike sees Pentangeli at his house and initially yells at him to make us think that he really did do it. But Mike doesn’t really ever do things like that, he’d have just had Frankie shot if he thought he did it. Know, Mike quickly tells Frank that he knows Roth did it, which pleases Frankie who expects that the Rosato’s and Roth can now be hit on. Frank is desperate for these men to die, as he knows through experience that Roth can’t be trusted. Now that we are seeing a sober Frank, we can see that he cares for Michael and wants to serve him, yet he is perturbed to have to make nice with the Rosato’s and keep things cool while Mike has time to investigate who betrayed him. Frank is too loyal to know he’s being used and goes along with it, making the mistake of turning up his meet with the Rosato’s unaided…sending Cicci to his car. The Rosato’s then attempt to kill Pentangeli, which is interrupted by the police, this makes us think that Frankie was supposed to die, but the Rosato’s always intended to let Frankie live, hence the ‘Michael Corleone says hello’

9) There is the argument that Frankie shouldn’t have been fooled by ‘Michael Corleone says hello’ and realize that Mike would never work with the Rosato’s…but on the other hand, Mike has said time and time again that he has important business with Roth, and this was still going ahead. And Mike said that he wanted time to find out who the traitor in his family was…Frank must have thought that Mike decided HE was the traitor after all. The man has just had a near death experience and was picked up by the police and charged with all sorts, Cicci was also picked up and he squealed like a baby. With evidence to now hand Mike a subpoena (With Questadt pulling the strings in the senate) this happens and Mike is brought to trial.

10) Frank Pentangeli has nothing. He can’t trust Mike anymore and the police will put him away for life. Frank decides to speak to the FBI and break Omerta. He feels he was betrayed so now he can betray, and even if Mike wasn’t responsible for the hit attempt, he was still responsible for not helping Frank when he asked for it, and then using his life to keep Roth happy. Mike played it terribly…and yet, after the senate hearings break down and Frank sees his brother, Frank is still told to kill himself, that it was the only way for his family to be looked after. Frank does so, out of honour. At the end of the day, Frank spoke to the senate, but only after he had been crapped on oh so many times by Michael. He is 80% innocent and his death is a tragedy. He was a loyal Corleone employee.

Frank didn’t have to die. Mike, if he just sat down on his ass and thought about it, should have realized that Roth manipulated the whole thing, the best thing Mike could have done was to tell Frankie he’s sorry for what he’s put him through, and send him on his way to live a peaceful life somewhere.

Roth played it beautifully.

Frank broke Omerta. Period. He had to die. But he got a break because implicit in his promise to Tom that he'd kill himself, came a promise from Tom that his family would be taken care of. That was a better break than Michael's other victims got.

And all of Mike's other victims did deserve their fates. Frank did not.

Oh, yes, Frank did. Yes, he was out-manipulated by the battle between Roth and Michael. However, as DT said, he broke Omerta. No matter what the cops had on him, he never should have given up Michael. Once he did, he was a dead man. Because he recanted at the hearings, he was given the choice to kill himself in exchange for the care of his family.

IMO, Frankie was slighted by Michael - to a certain point. No doubt that Pentangeli was loyal to Michael's father and the family in the early days. If only Michael could have seen Frank a bit earlier that day and with a lot less "audience"...Michael could have explained to Frankie that there was business happening with major positive long term benefits for all involved. The short term "trouble" Frankie was having with the Rosatos would be taken care of as soon as Michael "secured" the deal with Roth. If only Michael counseled Frankie in confidence, like a good don and shown him more respect, Frankie would have left with the assurance that Michael had faith in him and sweet revenge on the Rosatos would indeed be Frankie's prize for his patience. Instead, Frankie left feeling as if he was left to "wither on the vine" all by himself in NY. However, Frankie kept drinking that day and was angered as the day turned into night when he finally got to see Mike. We all know how alcohol amplifies emotions - good or bad. In the end, Frankie is responsible for his conduct that day. Of course, this is just my 2 cents...

I thought you were defending Frankie for a minute there

Why did Mike treat Frank like crap at the communion?

There is no question that Frankie was badly mistreated by Michael. He was a pawn between Michael and Roth. After the Tahoe shooting, Michael played him like a violin--Frankie was so grateful that Michael didn't blame him for the shooting that he agreed to put his head in the lion's mouth and meet with the Rosatos. If Frankie settled with the Rosatos, a Michael headache would disappear. If the Rosatos killed him, it was one more proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting. Michael couldn't lose--only Frankie did. The way Frankie's confused, everyman character was written, and portrayed so brilliantly by Michael V. Gazzo, is one of the treasures of GFII.

BUT: As others have pointed out, Frankie broke omerta. He would have been the highest-level Mafia guy to that time to break omerta. Had he been permitted to live, his example might have stimulated others, put in his desperate situation, to do likewise. Even more important: though Frankie's credibility as a witness against Michael at that hearing was wiped out by his recantation, the government would still be in a position to grill him for info that could be used against others--and against Michael, over time. They might have been able to use that info to get at Michael or those close to him even without using Frankie as a witness.

He knew too much, and had shown himself willing to use it. Fatal mistake.

Yeah, I can't argue with much of that. But Mike should turn the gun on himself and blow his own head off too.

Oh, by the way, you're saying that if Roth ordered the Rosato's to kill Frank, then it would have proved Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting? Why? The Rosato's could have acted out alone without Roth's say-so.

Good question.
I believe that, immediately after the Tahoe shooting, Michael was 95% certain that Roth was behind it. Michael could easily have had Roth whacked in his Miami home--he had no organization per se, just Johnny Ola. But the Havana deal was still pending, and Michael had to be 100% sure it was Roth before acting. So, his visit to Frankie was a kind of loyalty test. In a brilliant bit of manipulation, he showed up unannounced at Frankie's home, bellowed at him about the shooting--and then abruptly shifted gears and blamed Roth. Frankie almost passed out with relief. That's when Michael applied the loyalty test: "Settle those troubles with the Rosato brothers." It was very humiliating--and risky--for Frankie. But once he agreed, Michael was able to rule him out and was 100% sure that Roth was the Tahoe villain.

As for the Rosatos: since Roth was interceding with Michael for them in their dispute with Frankie, Michael knew they couldn't very well whack Frankie without Roth's approval. So, when it appeared that they had killed Frankie, Michael knew that the order could have come only from Roth. When Michael left Roth in Miami, he said: "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man." Roth himself must have nearly passed out from relief. But when, instead of killing Frankie, Michael dispatched Frankie to make up with the Rosatos, Roth knew he didn't suspect Frankie--meaning that Michael might suspect Roth. So, Roth's order to the Rosatos to kill Frankie was an effort to weaken Michael by eliminating his caporegime in NYC--and Michael knew it.

Hollywood, I was defending Frankie. I agree with TB, he was treated very unfair at the communion meeting. Michael was a careless don by not taking Frankie into his confidence much earlier in the day thus showing Pentangeli that he was indeed a major commodity to the Corleone family future. Frankie was entrusted to run the family business in NY that Vito established...if Michael couldn't trust Frankie, who could he trust? (No Fredo jokes here, please.) LCN rules 101, you can't talk to the don in the manner Frankie did, drunk or sober. IMO, Frankie had every right to be angry about a lot of issues but remember the famous GF3 quote Michael passed on to Vincent; "Never hate your enemy. It affects your judgement." Frankie hated the Rosatos - probably more than he disliked Roth.

Great posts both of you. Some respect coming Frankies way at last

I also agree about the performance of V Gazzo - Outstanding, absolutely outstanding.

''As for the Rosatos: since Roth was interceding with Michael for them in their dispute with Frankie, Michael knew they couldn't very well whack Frankie without Roth's approval. So, when it appeared that they had killed Frankie, Michael knew that the order could have come only from Roth. When Michael left Roth in Miami, he said: "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man." Roth himself must have nearly passed out from relief. But when, instead of killing Frankie, Michael dispatched Frankie to make up with the Rosatos, Roth knew he didn't suspect Frankie--meaning that Michael might suspect Roth. So, Roth's order to the Rosatos to kill Frankie was an effort to weaken Michael by eliminating his caporegime in NYC--and Michael knew it.''

Ok...I got another one for you....why bother with ANY of the Cuba deal if he knows Roth is going to keep trying to off him??

Gazzo was perfect. I can't imagine anybody else in that role.

Here goes more of my 2 pennies...If Michael would have struck Roth prematurely, he would have looked "bad" in the eyes of the other "investors" and more importantly, the commission. Mike had to be 100% sure that Roth was the pinnacle "bad guy" in the events that were unfolding before he set ANY plan in motion. One test Michael gave Roth was at the birthday cake scene in Havana. Michael described to Roth that he witnessed the young resistance would rather blow themselves up rather than be captured for their cause. The look on Roth's face is priceless - It seems to me that it was the first time Roth suspected that Michael was not an easy "target" as he once thought...IMO. I defer to Turnbull, he usually hits the nail on the head...TB, thoughts?

Frankie had to go.

Yes, he was misused by Michael. He was right about Hyman Roth, but as Michael pointed out, his 'Family' was still named 'Corleone'. He really should've stayed in New York and kept his mouth shut.

As for...
3) Frank can be seen as a good man, incapable of betraying the Corleone’s by the way he plays with Anthony.

Except he DID betray the Corleones, even if it was only after he believed he was double-crossed by Michael. Only the sight of his brother stopped him from putting Michael Corleone in prison.

It's a sad story what happened to Frankie. But he had to go.
And he knew it...and he took it like a man.

So when the flip do you not decide....hey...SELF PRESERVATION!!!!?

What's your point??

The point is...Frank doesn't want to die.

So he breaks Omerta. Which means he's NOT innocent.

And he dies anyway. Because he deserves it.

Self preservation is not unique to Frank Pentangelli. It's the way his world works, and the strongest guy is the one left standing.

Like you say...Roth played it beautifully.
But, OH, wait...he died too!!

So who's left standing?

Self preservation.

Fuck Omerta.

Michael should have died for acting like a [derogatory term for a woman's genitalia] many times over, he disrespected Tessio and Clemenza, he crapped on Tom and then fucked on Frank....

Mike was scum throughout his reign as the Don. Had contempt for every single member of his family except Al Neri.

.


Edited by SC to remove a censored word which was attempted to be bypassed through chicanery

Many good points have been made here in regards to Frank, Michael, the way he treated Frankie, etc.

But I have to agree with Apple here. The bottom line is that he broke Omerta! Self preservation or not, he betrayed the family. And for doing so, no matter how many ways one wants to justify it, Frank had to die for it. When you really think about it Michael was somewhat generous in allowing Frankie a way out that would let him keep his honor and have his family taken care of.

" Fuck Omerta.

Michael should have died for acting like a c-unt many times over, he disrespected Tessio and Clemenza, he crapped on Tom and then fucked on Frank....

Mike was scum throughout his reign as the Don. Had contempt for every single member of his family except Al Neri."

Typical response of someone who's case is falling apart.

If you have no better arguments as to why Frankie didn’t deserve to die, I guess you've given it your best shot.

One thing you're right about, though...Gazzo's performance.


Apple

I'm right about all of it.

You are too set in your Michael loving ways to ever accept my points. But my points are made well and true. You need to put yourself in the head of Frankie...and ask yourself...what the hell do I do now?

And he didn't actually break Omerta. He didn't testify in an open court that everything he said was true. He threatened to break Omerta...but didn't actually do so!

You're missing the point. You can't try to moralize it, because Pentangeli was a killer in his own right. He knew the rules. And when push came to shove, he had to die.

And watch your language. The C word isn't tolerated here. There are ladies on this site.

Right.

And then you need to put yourself in the head of Michael Corleone...and ask yourself...what the hell do I do with Frank Pentangelli now?

You kill him. Because he turned on you. Whatever the reason, whatever unfortunate circumstances led him to do it. He turned on you, and he turned on his Family.

And he has to die.

Apple

Ladies who watch the GF films and I'm sure are aware of naughty little words.

Are you a mod? If not, don't tell me off please.

Pentangeli knew the rules...and so did Mike...so why should we care about Mike? Because he's a character in these films...and so should we also care about Frank. A mobster maybe...but a man completely ragged on by his boss.

He didn't turn on Mike....he was turned on BY Mike!

No, he believed he was turned on by Michael. Right or wrong, that is what he thought.

And then he then turned on Michael, in retaliation.
Self preservation, sure.

And so, it didn't work. And he had to die.

Apple

I also beleive he was turned on by Mike in the sense that he recieved ZERO support from his don and was thrown to the wolves. Had he not been used by Mike in his schemes to trap Roth...then the Rosato's would have evenutally killed him because he was being forced into doing nothing.

Man, Mike got such a lot wrong.

Hollywood,

I am a mod on this board and I don't appreciate the use of the C word.

Now that aside, I understand where you are coming from with Michael being a bastard Boss to almost everyone. You're right about that. However, he was still the Boss and therefore no matter how justified one may be or may have been in turning on him and opening their mouth, Michael had to make an example out of ANYONE who turned on him. Damn, he killed his own brother for turning on him! You think that he was going to give Frankie a pass? As I said, in truth, Michael was somewhat generous in allowing Frankie to take his own life so that his family would be taken care of. Maybe it was Michael's way of saying to Frankie " I know that I sort of put you in the place that you wound up, so I'll give you a way out now."

Bottom line, bastard boss or not, he was still the boss and it would have shown weakness not only to Michael's enemies, but to those in his own family, had he given Frankie a pass. As much as I loved the Frankie Five Angels character, he had to die for what he did.

Michael made it clear in his discussion with Frank that he had business to do with Hyman Roth, and did not want it disturbed.

You have your priorities wrong, Michael was THE DON and was the one who should've received support from Frankie.

Had he not come to Nevada to complain in the first place, it is questionable whether he would've ever been placed in the position where he was almost killed by the Rosato's.

And even if he was, the end result is that he turned on his Don.

He broke Omerta.

He had to go.

Apple

My two cents:
Roth's objective in bringing Michael to Havana was to get the $2 million from him, then have him whacked by his pals in the Cuban government. Michael's objective in going to Havana was to buy time to figure out who was the traitor in his family. He also had to hold open the possibility that he could whack Roth and get the Havana empire anyway. So, he strung Roth along.

Roth publicly anointed him his heir at the birthday party. His purpose was to create an alibi: After Michael turned up dead following the Presidential New Year's party, he could claim, "Hey, I had nothing to do with it. I loved the kid like my own son. Ask any of those thugs at my birthday party. Goddam rebels musta done it." But Michael didn't turn over the $2 million--he needed more time. He was stringing Roth along. Michael also wanted to be introduced to Batista. My guess is that, had Batista not abdicated, Michael would have returned to Cuba a week or two after having Roth whacked, and offered to be the new Big Gringo in Havana gaming--complete with ongoing bribes to Batista. That's another reason he went along with that whole dangerous charade.

Hey guys, what are you talking about?

Whether it's right or not it's right to kill a human being? Americans!

Don Cardi – I appreciate you don’t like the c word, but I said it within context.

Ok

In response to Apple, Frankie DID try and support Mike…at what point didn’t he? At the end of the day, Mike wouldn’t tell a caporegime what was going on, he kept him in the dark, its like he was telling Frank ‘I don’t want your loyalty…shove it’

He didn’t come to Nevada to complain, he came to Nevada to discuss…if Mike had just seen him at a decent hour and not make him wait for hours and then have the GALL to say he’s had too much wine…well…it just says it all about Michael’s disrespectful and unprofessional way of conducting himself.

In response to Turnbull

I hardly think a bunch of hoods could be used as an ‘alibi’, in fact, I dare say a group of them were aware that Roth was planning to off Mike. Where did Mike say he wanted to meet Batista?

There are very few words that we ask you not to use here. I don't think that's asking too much. To try to circumvent the censor feature is a kid trick and not very nice. The "c" word was removed from your post.

Ok.

No need for the kid-like reprimand either but I'll take it on the chin

But my opinion is that we should be allowed to say it, we are on a forum regarding a film genre littered with the foulest of language. To bar it seems hypocritical. What if we want to referance a scene with the c-word in it? De Niro says it in Casino and Raging Bull.

Just my view. I'll keep all C's down to my thought process from now on.

Protest noted.

Is the decision to censor that word based on some sort of political correctness? Sure, but we do have a large contingent of women posters and they have voiced their displeasure over the use of that paricular word. I have to concur.

Do I use that word when not in the presence of women? Sure, but all we're doing is trying to maintain SOME sort of civilty here. That's not asking much.

Yes, Michael was a bastard. Yes, he abused Frankie's loyalty. Yes, he used him during his game with Roth.

But that doesn't make Frankie right. Even though Frankie balked at the last minute (only because of his brother, btw), his original deal with the Feds is what caused the hearings to be held in the first place. Nobody else could link Michael directly to the perjury charges they were trying to hang on him, in addition to his other crimes. Without Frankie's original deposition, there would have been nothing. For that, he had to be killed.

One of the points that The Godfather Trilogy makes over and over is that The Family is run by different rules than the rest of the world. Treachery can never be forgiven. That's it. Carlo couldn't be forgiven; Tessio couldn't be forgiven; the Corleones couldn't rest until Sollozzo and McCluskey were eliminated, and on and on.

It's the way of their world. Frankie knew it. He knew what he had done. That's why he had the conversation he did with Tom - to make sure that if he sacrificed his own life, his family would be taken care of.

'Is the decision to censor that word based on some sort of political correctness? Sure, but we do have a large contingent of women posters and they have voiced their displeasure over the use of that paricular word. I have to concur.

Do I use that word when not in the presence of women? Sure, but all we're doing is trying to maintain SOME sort of civilty here. That's not asking much.'



Some men don't like the word either...I think its a little condescending to suggest that poor women will be so offended by it when they watch these testosterone fuelled films...

I wont say any more about it.

I just think Michael gets away with way too much, and others get away with less. We are made to hate Tessio and Carlo for their treachery, but Mike did much the same to Frank in my view.

Why hate Tessio? Carlo I can understand. He was just a wife-beating jerk. Even Michael doesn't hate Tessio, however. He says that he knows Tessio did it because it seemed to be the smart thing to do, and that Tessio was always smart. He's not angry or even surprised by the betrayal.

[/quote]
I just think Michael gets away with way too much[/quote]

In the end, I don't think Michael got away with anything. In "winning," he actually lost everything, including his daughter (one of the only "innocent" casualties of the trilogy). Michael was a heartless, soulless prick. I've never had any sympathy for him, even when he died all by himself. But I still think that he did what he had to do with Frankie.

On the surface perhaps not, due to his fathers training. But deep down, he'd known the man all his life, I'm sure there was a bit of anger.

Three men in this very thread also viewed their displeasure at that word being used here.

Condescending? Fuck that! I believe we have one of the best boards on the net and that is partially due to upholding our rules designed to maintain a civil atmosphere for all members. The initial reply which started this subject discussion mentioned women, and I whole-heartedly concur.

But the word wasn't used in a derogatory context as regards the sexual meaning of the word. For me its all about context. And women aren't poor creatures who cower away at the use of a single word

If its a rule, fine, I'll abide by it, but I don't agree with it.

I side with doing away with the "c" word on the boards...no need for it. I also don't understand Finocchio's insistance that Frankie did not break Omerta. He did. He squealed to the FBI, signed affidavits and was a willing pawn in their perjury trap.

Bottom line is Michael was the Don and his word is final. He told Frankie to make peace with the Rosato, and just because he thought Michael betrayed him he did nor KNOW this for sure, and he broke his silence. That guarantees he dies.

As for the audience liking Frank and others more than Mike and for the premise that "Mike gets to get away with everything," Finocchio is absoluely right. Mike is not a nice man. He may be the personification of evil. We are not supposed to like Mike.

I dont know...I think we - the viewer - are supposed to be behind him?

Oh, and signing affadavits and whatnot is useless without TESTIFYING in court.

I agree...I think Vito would have been very disappointed in the way Michael turned out.

Yes Vito would've been disappointed , but I think he knew how Michael would turn out because of his reaction to the news about how they got rid of the Turk and McCLusky.

Frankie was gonna snitch but Vincenzo made him think twice .... if it wasn't for his older brother being there Frankie was gonna sing like a canary.

You put Frankie on the stand. Then you put him under oath and begin to ask him questions about Michael. When he says he doesn't recall anything, you bring out the affidavits and impeach him with them. Then you ask him "Isn't it true you recanted these sworn statements in the Senate hearing after you saw your brother from Sicily sitting between Tom Hagen and Michael Corleone?

Michael's whole life was about winning battles and losing the war. Vito died in his garden with his grandson by his side; his last words (in the novel): "Life is so beautiful." Michael died, alone and heartbroken, in Sicily, attended only by a little dog.

Had Roth succeeded in whacking Michael, he wouldn't have had to answer to the Cuban authorities because they were his partners in the murder. But, Neri and/or Rocco and/or Tom may have tried to get Roth to answer for it. Those hoods were witnesses whom Roth could call on, whether or not they were in on Roth's plan. Remember, too, that Roth had promised pieces of his empire to others in that birthday speech. That was another clever way Roth planned to spread doubt about who killed Michael--what if the Lakeville Road Boys, or Eddie Levine of Newport, or the Pennino brothers, were dissatisfied with their share and wanted Michael dead so they could take all of it?

Also recall that Roth brought Michael to the meeting with Batista, who introduced him to the other pezzanovanti as "representing our interests in tourism and leisure."

Pentangeli thought that Mike betrayed him.
So while he thought that he gave some info to the feds that had gotten a hold of him.

I would do exactly what Pentangeli did.
I won't rat out the Don if i didn't think that he had betrayed me.
Roth played it beautifully like Tom said, but Pentangeli still had justification.

Think of it as this you are in a gang they send some one after you to kill you, what would you do next?
I would go and rat the bastard out.

Even though all this is a code for the Mafia there is a sense of justification for what Frank did, he thought Mike had turned on him.

Turnbull - Power to you. You live and breathe these movies.

Nice one TDID

And apparently, even if you ARE a mod (or two), he'll still have a problem respecting your wishes.

That's fine...and you would end up dead, just like Pentangeli did.

While it's true Frankie never actually testified, never actually 'broke' Omerta after seeing his brother...the damage was done, the betrayal had been made. By making the decision to keep his trap shut he knew he was putting himself against a wall. He was now in trouble with the Feds; no more protection, certainly prison...where he would eventually be brought down by Michael's men. He really had nowhere to turn.

I think that the way the story is presented, we ARE supposed to feel sorry for Frankie, I certainly do. He's a pathetic character...loyal to his Don for years and then squashed like a bug because he couldn't keep up with the changing times, couldn't accept his NEW Don's way of doing things.

We do feel sorry for Frankie, and we do NOT like what Michael became. We may even like how close Michael was to being brought down by Frankie, before winning yet again. But that doesn't change the fact that in the business he was in, and for the actions he took...Frankie had to die.

I don't see how ANYONE could be a fan of these films for so many years and not comprehend that.

Apple

That's because Michael is always a step ahead of, just a bit more clever than...just about EVERYBODY who tries do do him in.

Of course, Michael does end up losing his family and dying alone...and THAT is the price he ultimately pays. So in the very end, he doesn't really get away with any of it.

***
Lesson in mob pecking board:

1. Tessio betrayed his Don (Michael Corleone) by hooking up with Barzini & setting him up to be assasinated.

2. Carlo betrayed his Don (Vito Corleone) by hooking up w/ Barzini & setting up his brother-in-law and acting Don to be assasinated, thereby weakening the Family.

3. Michael Corleone...the boss...the big cheese...THE DON...blew off a Capo who forgot his place.

Somehow, # 3 doesn't quite match up to 1 and 2.

Please, you, don't even think about it. For every swearword you don't use, there's a demeaning statement to take its place.

The damage had been done...the betrayal had been made...by MICHAEL first. Don or no Don, he acted terribly.

I wouldn't describe Frankie as pathetic. Far from it, he's certainly vibrant at the start...all the like if sucked out of him quite purposefully by Mike.

I comprehend it. But I have a different interpretation. The easy route is to support Mike in everything he does...I don't support him. FFC tries to make us support Michael ahead of perceived 'enemies' but Frankie was a friend.

He didn't forget his place. The Don forgot his place. You treat your capos with respect.

Maybe. Maybe not:
In the boathouse, Michael says, "Frankie, you're a good old man. And I like you. And you were loyal to my father for years.." I add this emphasis because the only choices that mattered to Michael were his choices, not anyone else's. Tom was Vito's choice for consigliere, not Michael's. Tom was Sonny's choice for brother, not Michael's Rocco was Clemenza's man, but Neri was Michael's. So, when he said that Frankie was loyal to his father, it probably counted for something--but not as much as if Michael had said, "...and you've been loyal to me for years."

My guess is that after Michael moved to Nevada, he maintained Clemenza as his NYC caporegime, but kept him on a long leash because he trusted him. Clemenza was Vito's man, but when the chips were down, he had proven his loyalty to Michael beyond dispute. But after Clemenza died, Michael had no one of comparable stature or loyalty to him to replace Clemenza. So, I'm guessing, he selected Frankie because he believed Frankie wasn't smart or ambitious enough to make a move against him--and would accept being on a much tighter leash than Clemenza.

Despite this, Frankie was not fitting into the tight little cage Michael had built for him. He had problems with the Rosatos that Michael probably didn't want to adjudicate. He aspired to "run my family without you on my back"--oh-oh, whose family?

Michael was at fault: He wanted to keep his NYC operation right under his thumb from a distance of nearly 3,000 miles, yet he didn't want to be involved in the day-to-day operations. And he wanted to pop in periodically and just summarily order Frankie to do things he didn't want to do. And he didn't like it when Frankie protested. That was not a situation that made for friendship between the two.

Once Frankie turned on Mike, he became an enemy. By choice. So he had to be dealt with and then eliminated, just like any other enemy who had threatened (and failed) to bring Michael down.



Which means I don't need to resort to vulgar language (and then lamely try to defend it) to get my point across.

Thanks for the compliment...

Look, there is no doubt that Michael became a selfish scumbag who's main objective was to get whatever he wanted through whomever he could not caring about feelings or loyalty. There is no question that because of his selfishness in wanting to make a deal with Roth he dismissed what was important to Frankie Five Angels and did not consider all the years of loyalty that Frankie gave to the Corleone family.

Had it been Vito that Frankie went to instead of Michael, there is no question that Vito would have somehow satisfied Frankie without jeapordizing the proposed deal with Roth. But that was Vito. As much as MIchael was like Vito in many ways, he lacked the compassion and understanding that Vito always seemed to maintain.

BUT! Regardless! Once Frankie decided to talk about the Corleone family business and break Omerta, he had to be dealt with!

AS I SAID ABOVE Hoolywood ; Had Michael given Frankie a pass, it would have appeared as a sign of weakness not only to his enemies, but to all those in the Corleone family that were under Michael. That's the bottom line. Right or wrong on Michael's part, regardless if it was a matter of survival on Frankie's part, had Michael let him off the hook it would have sent the wrong message to anyone in the Corleone family who even had a thought of turning on Michael in any way, shape or form.

Any Don in Michael's position, regardless of if that Don brought a betrayal by an underling upon himslef, HAS to, MUST deal with ANYONE who turns against the family.

Wouldn't have hurt to give him one little pass...if anyone laughs at him he can have them killed. He owed Frankie that much

Apple - I defended my use of the swearword because it fitted the context, I still beleive that. He was behaving like a C. Its no less vulgar then self-satisfied sarcasm.

Nope. Did Mike owe Tessio "that much" because of a past history together? Tessio made the mistake of turning against Mike and had to pay for that mistake. The same is true of Frankie Five Angels - he made a mistake in judgment and had to pay for that.

I would say that Fredo, simply by being Mike's brother, should have gotten a pass, but Mike was too far gone by that point.

Tessio tried to have Michael killed. Frankie just spoke against him. Big difference and forgivable seeing as Mike had shat on him.

Sure, you have to wonder why Michael, as smart as he was, couldn't understand that it was sometimes his own actions that cause his own problems.

Follow me blindly, don't question me and if you don't like the way things are changing or the way I now treat you....to bad. The only way out is MORTA

And it is all about me and mine, rather that this thing of OURS. Vito was always smarter in the way he treated his people. He earned the loyalty of most his people by the way he treated them and how he used them.

SPOT ON!!

Agreed. Michael didn't have Vito's ability to instill love and loyalty. But that has nothing to do with whether Michael should have killed Frankie or not. HF, you're like a dog with a bone. Give it up.

No. I won't.

Please, lets not make things personal. Everyone post as much as they like, as long as they keep it civil

I think we can all agree that Frank was put in a no win situation. He could only go by what he thought he knew. And he thought that it was Michael that was setting him up to be killed. That is what made Roth's move so good. At that point, what would you expect him to be? Loyal, devoted friend?
He was left out to dry and had no where to turn. The feds were his only play, They had him all sealed up anyway.

Much like Joe Valacci (sp?) poistion back then.

The bosses can screw you over, then put you down like a dog when you don't matter to them.

Like in the movie Casino, everyone goes down before the feds hit the top players, even if you are stand up guy. Like Reno said, "Why take the chance? That's the way I see it."

Not a big difference. Not at all. You're missing a big point of Part II - Michael was out to kill all his enemies, perceived and otherwise. To speak out against these guys is akin to trying to kill them.

Alright, am I the only one who thinks HF is alone when he says Frankie's innocent. The only way to find out is to reach a verdict. Now fellower GBBers, is he innocent or guilty ? Here's my verdict: GUILTY

No, I have one supporter in fathersson.

SC - Then Michael has cracked! Tom Hagen had it right when he lamented Michael's murderous desires.

Michael lost all compassion and mercy in his heart after Apollina's death. I think it added to his downfall before he even became Don.

Bottom line - Guilty. Rules are rules, period.

An even lower bottom line...

Mike is a rat.