Would Hagen Have Approved Of Vincent?

Suppose Tom Hagen was still around in GFIII, and Michael had decided that he wanted out. Do you think Hagen would have approved of Michael making Vincent Don of The Corelone family?


Don Cardi

Well, Tom was no big fan of Sonny as Don, so you have to assume that he'd be opposed to Vincent for the same reasons.

Good question, DC. It's hard to say, isn't it? Tom loved Sonny more than anyone. I think that Tom and Sonny truely had a brotherly connection. He might've loved to see his brother's son rise to power and live out the future that his brother was denied.

However, Tom also was frustrated with Sonny's temper and knew that it had the potential to be his undoing. I would imagine that it would upset him that Vincent had inherited that temper from his father. I think, as cautious and well-schooled as Tom was in complete and total discretion, he probably would not be happy with Michael's choice.

Was that vague enough for you??

"Caution" is right, SB! Tom was ever-disapproving of violence, hot-headed moves, anything that might jeopardize peace. He wasn't always right, as we saw. But Vincent personified everything he was against. No way would Tom have approved of Vincent. But if Michael tapped Vincent, Tom would have gone along because he was the most loyal of Michael's subordinates.

If Michael had more sons then Vincent would never even have come into the equation. Vincent was a bigger head ache than Sonny becuase he was far less respectful. Hagen would never have approved.

But just to repeat myself I feel the fact Michael never found another lady and had more children is one of the most unrealistic things about the 3rd film.

I think he would not have approved the choice. Hagen loved his adoptive family members, but this would have never obscured his judgment. The Corleone family was meant to end with Michael. I think Vincent would only speed the decline and fall of Corleones empire. It would have been interesting to investigate if Michael had to witness this. Maybe witnessing the decline of the family which he sacrified everything for was the last straw.

Well I happen to agree with all of you.

Tom, took after Vito in many ways. He was by Vito's side day after day. And he learned a lot from Vito. The one strong trait that he picked up from Vito was to never think with your heart when it came to the business. Never make a hasty decision. A lawyer with one briefcase can do more then 100 men with guns. So Tom would have recognized immedeatly that Vincent was not the person for the job.

So then who do you think Tom would have reccomended, who would have been the right person to run the family? Who really was capable?


Don Cardi

Connie?????

Seriously, nobody. After Michael, nobody.

Then the Corleone family would have been no more. So in a way Michael may have been right in picking Vincent. At least with Vincent there was still a chance to preserve the family.


Don Cardi

that's the way I see it. No more Corleone family as a mafia empire.

yes, I think Michael had no other possible choice, but he knew it would have meant the end of the Corleones. What a shame! We shall not know how the whole thing was actually going.....

I think Hagen would've approved, however, AFTER the appropriate training that Vincent HAD to undergo, as he is not exactly like his father, like everybody says. Sure he had the obvious temper of his father, but he also has Fredo's sensivity, and Michael's calm manner, and Vito's simple strategy. As Garcia himself has said, Vincent is the combination of all the sons. Like all the sons were combined Vito, Vincent was supposed to be all his uncles and father combined. And being an illegitimate Corleone enhanced his upbringing, as Vito was never a Corleone until named so when coming to America. Vincent was named Corleone by Michael when they came to Sicily.

Its a parallel that I think Coppola would've made more obvious, had he had:

1) Duvall as Hagen back
2) A small rewrite of the original script that had Tom in, in order to make it more detailed like its predecessors.
3) TIME to film the movie, time that was taken away from him for the damn Christmas release. I'd rather see this movie a year later, and complete, then the -still great- incomplete film. Had it been COMPLETE, and as Coppola first imagined it, it would surely be a much more serious enemy in the Academy Awards.

Anyway, that what I think would've been, IMO.

Nice thinking! Never thought of that.

Welcome to the boards btw! You'll have a good time here.

Don Al,

Excellent interpretation. You bring up some very valid points.

Welcome to the boards.


Don Cardi

Excellent point Don Al.

I have written extensively about what role Tom Hagen would have played in GFIII, including the idea that he would have never allowed Mike to get tricked by the Church and the Immobiliare people. I do not think he would have approved of Vincent at all, however, had Mike not been screwed by the Vatican there would have been no need for all the bloodshed at the end, and thus no need to elevate Vincent to be the Don.

I'm not surprised. As Michael got older, he got colder and more calculating, more manipulative. I believe Michael loved Kay before Sicily, and definitely was "hit by the thunderbolt" by Apollonia. But after she was killed and he returned to the US, he had given in completely to his hard-edged, cold, calculating nature. I think he may still have loved Kay at that time, but he was primarily interested in her as a symbol of his grand scheme for legitimacy: a WASP from a respectable family who would bear his children and make him look like a regular businessman. After he threw Kay out, he basically had no more time--or feeling--for a wife.

Are you implying that George Hamilton did not do a good job protecting Mike!

Geroge Hamilton to replace Robert Duvall. What was there a two for one sale on actors that week? Give me a break. It was a slap in the face to the character of Tom Hagen. I despise him in that role. They should have given him the Cannoli!


Don Cardi

George Hamilton rose to fame by heavy advertising on subways and busses in New York "Been Injured? No Recovery
No Fee! Call 1-800- SUN TANS or visit our website at www.shysters.com.

NEVER

Maybe he would have been like that for a few years or so....but surely after a while as he starts to mature he would be looking for another relationship...after all he was no fanuc,.. he would've followed on in his fathers footsteps and made sure that he had a large family to hold the family together. Are we supposed to beleive that he spent all those years sleeping alone, pleasuring himself? looking after his children by himself? when he is one of the most powerful men in America?

to me this does not sound plausable.

Bless,

B Roast B

It was Kay who actually wound up looking after the children. Michael mentions this in the opening scene of GFIII when he is wrting the letter to his children.


Don Cardi

You don't need to be married to have sex. It is very plausible to me that Michael spent the rest of his life alone. It fits him. His soul was sort of petrified, so was his heart. But this doesn't mean he vowed to chastity. He is a Sicilian, after all!!!

Exactly...surely somewhere along the line he would have left a seed in the earth, or found a lady who he wanted to settle down with.

I appear to be the only one who thinks this...

ah well..

Bless,

B Roast B

P.S also there must some Clemenza juniors running around somewhere....surely they would be better than that hole Vincent

Poor Vincent....everybody hates him.....

PS. I don't hate him. He's too cute.

He didn't re-marry because he still really loved Kay. I think that as he got older he hoped that she would come back to him.


DS

thats a lot of years to be waiting for one woman.

it makes Michael seem a bit soppy doesnt it?

I do not hate vincent he lost his hotheaded temper by
the end of the movie.

Not to mention his girlfriend

I don't think Tom would have approved of Vincent because he was just like Sonny and Tom and Sonny buttheads on a lot of different topics, so for that reason alone I think Tom would have highly disapproved of Vincent



Joe Batters

I agree with Don Al DeBrando, Vincent had potential. He wasn't just Sonny reincarnated, he was Vito all over again - just a Vito who never saw his father and brother die because of temper.

He wouldn`t. Tom Hagen was well trained by Vito Corleone, the most powerful weapon Tom always had was the clever speech. This is about talking when it`s only neccesary and specific and short words, using the ambiguity and sarcasm if neccesary. Of course, Vincent doesn`t have that kind of skill.

I agree with Don Al DeBrando, his post perfectly echo's my impression of the scenario's outcome. Vincent went through a big transformation in GFIII, from an unsophisticated hoodlum who knew "certainly dressed for it" to a much more calm and sophisticated person, this is evident through his manner by the end. However, he was a hot headed individual at the beginning, brash and quick tempered. But he certainly learned. He had loved to Sophia's Character, pretty deep love, but he did give it up, which was the intelligent move. Now if he totally followed Michael's ways he would wait for Michael to die to have her, but that's neither here nor there. I think the key to his personality change is in this act. Why? Well because Sonny never overcame his temper. He didn't do the right thing and it was a fatal error, when he went after Carlo for the second time in GF1, in that case Sonny was ruled by emotion, but Vincent made the intelligent choice, which meant he conquered his battle, mind vs emotion or at least learnt how to keep it in check.

In that light, I feel Hagen would have been disapproving or apprehensive at first. I think by GFIII, he would have enough faith in Michael to trust his instinct and it would have been a subtle point, adding further depth to the story and intricacy... only if FFC choose Duvall over a staircase... WHY? WHY?

Hagen would have disapproved of Vincent. But he was the most loyal of family retainers. I think if Michael asked him to stay on with Vincent, he would have agreed. Plus, at his age by the time of GFIII (he'd have been almost 70), he really had no other career options.

I can see the reasoning behind both arguments "Tom for.." and Tom against.."

BUT remember... "preserving the family" is the goal at this point.... so I say Tom goes along and does ALL he can to help Vincent be successful(and to learn)

I really disliked the fact that Michael "passed on " the power of the family to Vincent.It was not a smart move and it just seemed "out of character" and lazy for Michael.As for my answer to this question: i believe Tom would have disapproved.

Who do you think that he should have passed it on to?

Tony Soprano

Im not sure if the rules of the mob allow this,but i think with time,Michael maybe couldeve trained and taught Connie to take the reigns.In part three it already shows how ruthless and cunning she can be.Also it would have been a fresh twist having a female "run" things.Just a thought.

And she could have made Mary her Consigliere!

And she could have made Mary her Consigliere!


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Yeah then when MAry screwed up she could lose it and say "Your father had Hagen, look what I've got, you spoiled guinea brat!


(BTW is a "spoiled guinea brat" an italian sausage gone bad?)

I am trying to find out who killed the two hitmen in Part II that tried to kill Michael. It wasn't Fredo so who did it?

Try doing a search or scrolling down this Godfather Trilogy Thread. You'll find that this exact question has been asked and discussed many times over the years. As a matter of fact it was just recently discussed again right here in this thread.

Welcome to the boards.

LOL Fair enough,it might sound like a stupid idea but it was just something i pondered about once or twice.