The script in GFII

In the official script, Sandra Corleone, who is sonny's wife, plays lots of roles in GF II.

But none of that made it to the movie. Anyone know why?

One scene there is Tom and Sandra kissing each other in the mouth.

http://imsdb.com/scripts/Godfather-Part-II.html
control+F Sandra and you see she is in the script alot.

Tom supposedly had an affair with Sandra, and Michael said something to the effect of "You can take your mistress with you..." But it wasn't kept in the final cut.

Michael did tell Tom that he could move himself "and your mistress" to Vegas in the boathouse scene that made the cut of GFII. But there was no indication that it was Sandra. In fact, Sandra appears only in a deleted scene (one of the best) with her daughter Francesca and her fiancee, Gardiner Shaw.
Probably the simplest explanation for the non-appearance of the Tom/Sandra affair (and all the other stuff that appeared in earlier scripts that didn't make the cut) is that they would have complicated the plot, and lengthened a film that was already pushing the envelop for both complexity and length.

Well, i'm actually happy this whole affair of Sandra/Tom didn't make it through the final editing.

I mean, Tom, as loyal to his step brother Sonny, would have never had a relationship with his wife.
Tom Hagen would've been a different and careless man if this continued, dont you think?

I agree 100% that it's better this wasn't in the final script. The novel especially shows how grateful Tom was to Sonny for taking him in; what kind of scumbag would he be if he screwed around with his stepbrother's widow??

What would make him a scumbag was that he was screwing around on his wife, not that it was with Sandra.

You could argue that it was very compassionate of him to want to look after Sandra, the widow of his stepbrother.

If you died, wouldn't you feel good to know that your widow was in the good hands of someone you knew and could trust?

Oh, I see. Thanks for the explanation, Turnbull.

I am glad that they did not include a Tom and Sandra thing in the GFII.

Makes me wonder about FFC though. Originally having a Tom and Sandra affair written into GFII and then having two cousins, Vincent and Mary having a relationship in GFIII. The guy just may be into some kinky shit!


Don Cardi

Cousin relationships count as incest, don't they nowadays?
In FFC's times when he was young, especially traditional cities like Sicily, cousin's marrying each other wasn't bad at all. I remember my father telling me how his friend married his 1st cousin.

I never understood the whole mistress thing. It seems so out of character for Tom. He was a lot like Vito...very straight laced, and by the book when it came to sexual matters. He was also very discreet and I just find it not believable that he would have a mistress.

There's the actual scene from GFIII, where among other things Michael & Anthony are trying to talk Mary out of this relationship with Vincent. I believe one of the things Michael says is, "Mary...he's your first cousin!"

Mary, being the bright one she is, replies: "I love him, dad."

Sure it was incest. I'll really never know why FFC chose to incorporate such a ridiculous subplot into GFIII.

Of course...I'll never know why FFC chose to do alot of things with regard to GFIII...!!!

Apple

Yeh exactly, i don't even wanna go there with the mistakes in GFIII

You HAVE to be discreet when you have a mistress!!

I think you (not specifically you, Apple, but you members of the BBs) are generally too strict on this matter. In my opinion the word "incest" relates more to parents/children and brother/sister relationships than to cousins. Two first cousins can legally marry (at least here in Italy they can)and they can even do it in church, if they are given a special permission by the Church. Plus it's very true that marriages between cousins were not such a rare occurrence in older times, especially (but not esclusively) in Southern Italy.

If you're blood relatives, it's incest.

King Henry VIII in order to be able to do away with his second wife Anne Bolyn, had her put on trial for among other things, sleeping with her brother.

Mary & Vincent were 1st cousins. Their fathers were brothers. Incest.

Whether or not it's ok to marry (at least in Italy) isn't really the main point. The main point is that FFC had a myriad of subplots/relationships within the Corleone circle to explore and write about. A love affair between two cousins, one of them a fabricated bastard, the product of an extramarital affair who shouldn't have even been welcome into the family but nevertheless eventually became DON CORLEONE...was frankly a waste of good writing talent.

Apple


Apple

Why shouldn't Vincent have been welcomed into the family?

He was still Michael's nephew, regardless of the fact that he was the product of an extra-marital relationship.

I agree that it was rather farfetched that he became the Don, but still, he was Michael's nephew.

Personally I had no objections to FFC introducing Sonny's illegitimate boy and his coming into the Corleone family. What I did object to, as I've said earlier, was how FFC RUSHED him from this street thug to the Don. More scenes should have been shot showing us how Michael was schooling/grooming him for the leadership role. It would have been better to see scenes like that than all the ones we were shown involving him and Mary. No doubt GFIII was a rushed movie, and it showed. FFC could have done so much more with the Vincent character, the son of one of the most fan favorite characters of the original Godfather.


Don Cardi

The line that she says in that scene, one which I remember so vividly because I thought it was such a week line, is "Then I love him first!"


Don Cardi

At the begining of the script why was Don Cicci's name changed from Don Francesco....the part when Vito's mother was pleading for his life she calls him Cicci and it says Francesco in the script. anybody know???


Joe Batters

True, he was still Michael's nephew. But Michael also had other nephews, such as Connie's children and at least one other son from Sonny & Sandra's marriage (did they have any more besides the twin girls?).

So even with the introduction of Vincent into the story, and Anthony having no interest in the Family Business...I've posted here in the past that it might've made a MUCH more interesting and believable story for him to at least rival his legitimate cousins and brother for the top spot in the family.

Instead of this ridiculous love story subplot. Vincent could've been welcomed into the family, sure. But with his character came many possibilities/subplots that went unexplored; in favor of a dopey affair with his cousin, whom he eventually gave up to become Head of the Corleone Family.

And Michael pretty much declaing, "Allright, you can be Don if you promise never to see my daughter again...", is another pretty unbelievable conclusion to have been reached.

Apple

is not such a rarity, believe me. It can happen. It happens. It's life. Maybe FFC decided to add this event for dramatic purpose. It doesn't annoy me at all.

OMG, you are merciless, Apple! I would never dream to call an illegitimate child "a bastard", he's a child, that's all!

OMG, he was SONNY's blood, after all!

I absolutely agree, DC.

That's the only reason why I could stand for a GF4!!!

I always had the impression that Michael was not too enamored of Connie's kids ("Do you know that your oldest son Victor was arrested in Reno on some petty theft charge?").

Plus, if you were Michael, do you think you could have trusted the son(s) of a man you had killed?

That might have even made a better plot for GF III: The revenge of Carlo's sons, over the objections of Connie, her loyalties torn between her children and her brother.

Too bad we don't know anyone with a flair for writing who had once started a Godfather sequel....

That would have made a good story.


DS

All the more reason why the inclusion of Connie's children, as well as Sonny's son Frank (half-brother of 'the bastard') could have made for a far more interesting family dynamic than the stupid incestual affair we got. Just your statements above, plawrence...suggest the exciting story that could've come out of such turmoil.

Lavinia from Italy...I am sure that affairs and even marriages between 1st cousins happen all the time (especially as you suggest, in Italy). However as history has proven in the case of GFIII, such affairs do not necessarily make for good movie entertainment.

Apple

Okay the girl from Kentucky is going to have to chime in on the kissin cousins topic. Seriously I know a lady whose parents were 1st cousins, her parents had five children, one was mentally retarded, one died in infancy from something related to inbreeding, and the others all have mild retardation and/or extra fingers and toes. No joke.

So we should be thankful that Mary got whacked and that there are no retarded, extra fingered Corleones running amuck.

All true, Apple.

I only took exception to your statement that Vincent was "a fabricated bastard, the product of an extramarital affair who shouldn't have even been welcome into the family."

Seems rather coldhearted and judgemental on your part.

If I found that I had a long lost close relative, I'd welcome him into the "family" with open arms, the product of an illicit love ffair or not. They'd still be my blood.

And Vincent apparently was not even "long lost". Seemingly he'd been in the picture, and accepted by Michael, for a while.

Ya think?? Why'd Connie introduce Vincent (to Michael) by saying: "Michael, you know Vincent Mancini -- Sonny’s boy". She not only included his last name but his relationship to the family. I think she was afraid Michael wouldn't know who Vincent was.

From Sandra in GF II being left out to incest relationships and GFIII having flaws.
Gone off topic dont ya think

SC you are correct. Plawrence, you are somewhat correct.

I think that as you've said Plaw, Vincent was in the picture for quite some time. But in my opinion not in the way that you assume.

From the exchange in the scene SC has quoted through the exchange of dialogue between Vincent, Zsa Zsa and Michael, one can conclude that Vincent was out there in the streets, working for Zsa Zsa trying to make a reputation for himself. Michael was fully aware of what Vncent was doing, being kept informed of his rogue actions, but never really meeting or sitting down with Vincent personally. That is why Connie introduces him to Michael saying "Michael, you know Vincent Mancini, Sonny's Boy."

Michael knew OF him, from being told about him and being kept informed of his actions, but Michael really didn't know him.


Don Cardi

I just realized that I wrote "apparently Vincent was long lost" when I meant to write that Vincent was not long lost, so I changed that.

Given the subsequent dialogue in the scene with Zasa, Vincent, and Michael, in which Michael makes a comment about having offered Vincent a job, and the later scene at the party when Mary talks to Vincent and indicates that she remembers him from past family gatherings, I always thought that Connie's remark to Michael ("Michael, you know Vincent Mancini, Sonny's Boy.") had, perhaps, a deeper meaning.

Clearly, she had a relationship with Vincent (wasn't there some dialogue about how he was her favorite nephew, or she was his favorite aunt?) and I think her comment to Michael was rather "pointed", indicating that in her mind Michael had not done right by his nephew, and she was reminding him that he was a blood relative.

Very little escaped Michael's eye. Surely he knew of Vincent's relationship with Connie, and surely he knew exactly what Vincent's activities were, and Connie surely knew that Michael knew who Vincent was. Thus my conclusion that her manner in "introducing" Vincent to Michael had more meaning than it would appear.

It was more of a "reminder" than an "introduction", I think.

That's a very valid point of view.

From the conversation between Mary and Vincent, it had been 12 - 15 years since they last saw one another. That indicates to me that Vincent was not around Michael that much. As for Connie and Vincent's relationship, the line was " Hey Vincent, who's your favorite aunt?" My thinking is that Lucy, being Connie's maid of honor, in all likelyhood remained friends with Connie and stood in contact with her over the years. Therefore Connie would be more familiar and closer with Vincent than Michael.

Yes, nothing ever got past Michael, but as I said in an ealier post, I think that Michael "kept tabs" on Vincents activities, and knew OF Vincent for the most part.

Maybe Mike saw him the 12 to 15 years earlier at the wedding, but as a 15 year old kid. It is possible that a few years later, when Vincent began to make a name for himself, Michael offered him a job, " I offered you something, better, in the legitimate world. You turned me down" possibly at the request of aunt Connie.

So after Vincent turned down that offer years earlier, he went to work for Zsa Zsa and Michael porobably did not have any sort of relationship with Vincent.
So when Connie brings him to see Michael, her " you remember Vincent" line may have just been a different way of saying " this is Sonny's boy, he's grown since the last time you saw him." Vincent even addresses Michael as "Mr. Corleone." Not the way that a nephew who's had some sort of relationship with an uncle would address his uncle.

Vincent was initially an outsider to Michael, and was treated that way over the years. That is why Vincent is enamored when his uncle tells him that he can now call himself a "Corleone." He finally was recognized as a nephew by his uncle Michael.

Don Cardi

Of course it was cold & judgemental. It was meant to be.

First of all, Vincent was indeed a bastard. Second, he WAS the product of an extramarital affair. And finally, the character was most certainly fabricated for the making of GFIII.

As for him being welcomed into the family, again it may have been a much more believable and entertaining plot had certain family members (like his half brother & cousins) NOT welcomed him into the family. Therein would've lied the seeds of some incredible rivalry between the Corleone grandchildren (not to mention Connie, Sandra ), with Don Michael right smack in the middle.


Of course YOU might, and even Uncle Michael & Aunt Connie might...but others might not. There would be the story. Since he was after all ' Sonny's boy', the views of Sonny's widow and other children might have added some more depth to the overall situation. Remember, Lucy was a bridesmaid at Connie's wedding; Sandra practically witnessed her husband flirting with her, and told him outright to watch himself. How might she, her kids, and the baby she was carrying at the time (probably now about the same age as Vincent) have felt about this young man who now has designs on taking over the family business. What a missed opportunity.

And even if he had been accepted as a nephew by Michael for a while, all hell should've broken loose when the affair with Mary began. It should not have come to a meek Michael turning the reigns over to Vincent on the condition he never see Mary again.

Apple