If Sonny was alive in GF2

Freddo betrayed Michael, if Sonny was alive,what would Sonny have done?Fight against Michael?Would he agree to kill Freddo?Would he deal between Freddo and Michael for peace?Would Sonny accept Michael as a Don?Would he hate Michael like Freddo because Michael is the boss?

Uhm, it's Fredo, not Freddo.

I don't know about your questions. Sonny would certainly not betray Michael, but he would automatically have more power, that's the way he was. And he wouldn't agree in killing Fredo.

If Sonny was alive then Michael would have never been boss.

If Sonny remained alive then there would've been NO GFII, because he would've run the Corleone Family into the ground before Michael ever had the chance to touch it.

One of the main underlying themes of The Godfather was that Sonny, the eldest son and heir apparent, HAD to die so that the Family would ultimately end up under the guidance of the youngest and least likely son.

Apple

I agree, Had Sonny stayied alive Michael would have never become Don. But I would have feared for the destiny of the family if this had happened.

I disagree. If that's the case, then Fredo Corleone would have become Boss of the Corleone Family after Vito Corleone had died.

Oh, of course...then allow me to rephrase (even though that wasn't quite the original question):

If Sonny died and Fredo became 'boss' after Vito's death....then there would've been NO GFII, because he would've run the Corleone Family into the ground before Michael ever had the chance to touch it.

Besides...if Vito had intended for Fredo to run the family then he would've called him back from Vegas and begun to work with him and groom him in preparation for the inevitable. As we know from both the novel and movie...it was MICHAEL to whom Vito reluctantly handed the reigns, not his older surviving brother.

Apple

According to the novel, I'd agree with Peter.

Puzo wrote something to the effect that the position of Don "was by no means hereditary."

There was no way that Fredo was ever gonna hold the reins.

Had Sonny lived, I think that there's a fair chance - despite all of the "every man has but one true destiny" stuff - that Michael would have chosen to leave a life of crime completely. Had he stayed, I believe he almost surely would have deferred to Sonny as Don.

But he certainly would have been the #2 man, and the "behind the scenes brain" of the family, providing the intelligent reasonableness of his father as a counterpoint to Sonny's temper.

I don't think that Sonny had the brains for the big deals that Michael did either, nor did he have the long-term vision.

Actually, they might have made a very effective "Two-Headed Don", with Sonny as the outside man who handled the muscle end and keeping everyone in line, with Michael working behind the scenes by negotiating, making the money, and eventually legitimizing the family.

Precisely. If Sonny had lived he wouldn't have had the ability to bring Michael home from Sicily, and I would guess eventually Michael would have ben assassinated there.
Tom was going to fight the war to the bitter end regardless of the consequences. Tessio would have betrayed the family, and Clemenza just might have gone along with Tessio.
Tom would either jump ship or be shoved off for always trying to patch things up and the Corleone family would have been a distant memory.

Man You guys are genius's I think that would have been great Both Sonny AND Mike being a little faction, it would have been perfect the corleone Family would have survived forever I bet..........it would have made for a very different movie

By the way I found another Message Board on the Godfather and it was 300000000000000 X's weaker than this work of art...I mean there were people on there saying they Hated the movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHATS THIS WORLD COMMING TO???????



Joe Batters

You mean Sonny would have faught the war to the end?


Here is my question though, Mike settled all family business by killing the 4/5 heads of the other families, but that was partly Sonny's idea as well (or was it mostly Sonny's I don't remember) so what did Mike do that was any different than what Sonny would have done since neither of them were carrying out the hits.

Would he have still ran it into the ground without any real competition in NY?

Also, no one hear can tell me they wouldn't have loved to see Sonny instead of Mike with Moe Green in Vegas

Mike only pulled it off because the heads of the families were lulled into thinking they were at peace.

oh yeah

I could hear Sollozzo now, "A hundred and forty-two shots and he's still alive!"

There would have to be some serious rewrites to have Sonny be alive. plaw, can you get busy on that?

MC I'm sure the makers of the Scarface video game could give him some hints

If Sonny was alive, the other families would not have thought that the Corleone family was weak......and Sonny probably could not have wiped them out like Mikey and Don VIto did........Sonny was too hot headed to play weak.
But, with that said, you are all right......Sonny would have run the family into the ground, Mikey would have gotten assasinated, and Fredo would have been iced out in Vegas......the family would be no more.

The truth is, if Sonny had lived, he would not have been Don for a long time. Vito recovered, took over the reins, and made the peace to bring Michael home. Sonny would've returned to his position as head of his regime, and perhaps, after spending more time under Vito's tutelage, been a very different Don by the end of his father's life. Then, as suggested, after Vito had died, the three sons would've run the business, Fredo with the entertainment end, Michael with his business head, and Sonny the muscle end of the business. Quite a triumvirate.

Yeah. Like maybe Appolonia lives to come to America and then has a rivalry with her sister-in-law Sandra, each claiming her hubby would be the better Don.

And then Appolonia finally running Sandra down during a driving lesson, thereby causing Sonny to whack Michael for bringing this little ditz over from Sicily in the first place. Then, with both Sandra and Micheal out of the way, Sonny starts banging Appolonia since she's now good for little else...only both eventually end up dead due to a secret alliance between Clemenza and Tessio who cannot believe what a bunch of dimwits their Don has brought into the world.

Which of course leaves an open door to Fredo, who eventually comes home with Hyman Roth to take joint control of the Family. Once secure in his position Roth assasinates Fredo and then having sole and complete power over the Corleone Empire, moves the whole thing over to Israel.

Guess you're right, MaryCas...a couple of simple rewrites and ANYTHING's possible!!!!

Apple

But Roth can't swim. So Don Ciccio's grandson and Lucchese threw him into the Dead Sea, and took over the empire.

But you can't drown in the Dead Sea too much salt.

Of course they attached Rocco to Roth. Rocco had many stones in his pocket, so they drowned both.

Roth is soo old......he was around when the Dead Sea was just sick......
Thank you!!!! Thank you!!!! I will be here all week.......try the veal!!!!

Rim shot!

This family and their pets walk into a talent agent and tell him they have an act. The agent says "let me see it.... "

I agree. If Sonny was still alive, Vito would have had more time to tutor him. Sonny would have also succumbed to Vito's orders, and the top priority would still have been to get Michael home safely. Sonny would have never defied Vito. The plan still would have been to show weakness to the other families, and then strike. However I think that Sonny would have been the boss, and Michael either Sonny's consigliere or underboss. And if Sonny were alive then the attempt may have been made on his life with a setup by Fredo. But the difference would have been that Sonny would have beat the shit out of Fredo, and never would have had him killed. And if Michael would have advised Sonny that Fredo should be killed, then Sonny would have beaten the shit out of Michael also!


Don Cardi

Ah, the famous Santino Corleone temper!! However, I think that Sonny knew his role as head of the family was only because Vito was injured. And Vito would have been angry at some of the things Sonny had done, like killing the Tattaglia son. He would never have let Sonny remain in power. And the truth is, Fredo was never jealous of Sonny. Sonny was older, so Fredo had no reason to feel that he was bypassed for the role of Don. He never would've been a threat to his older brother.

Not while he was alive, but by your own admission, Vito would have groomed Sonny to take over the postion once Vito was gone.


Don Cardi

Oh, yes, absolutely. Sorry if I misunderstood your post. I thought you meant that Vito would not have taken back the reins of power.

If you are of the mind that a big part of the reason why Fredo betrayed Michael was jealousy and resentment of the fact that Michael was his younger brother and he (Fredo) was "stepped over", then there's no reason to think he would have betrayed Sonny as well.

Sonny, of course, was the older brother, and, as such, was always ahead of Fredo in the family pecking order.

Sonny commanded his own regime, while Fredo was just a.....um, just a......

What exactly was Fredo at the time of the assassination attempt on his father?

Anyway, there was no reason for Fredo to resent Sonny or feel any jealousy towards Sonny, hence, no betrayal.

Your point is well taken. However I am of the mind that the unintentional betrayal was more than just jealousy in itself. Yes jealousy played a part in Fredo's decision to "get involved," but if pure jealousy that was the motivating factor behind Fredo's talking with Roth's people, then that would spell intention and malice on Fredo's part. And I do NOT believe that there was any intent or malice to actually hurt Mike on Fredo's part. It was more of an overall insecurity that Fredo had because of the menial positions that he had been given within the family.

Fredo still would have felt like a "nothing" even if Sonny were alive. And there still may have been a deal between The Corleones and Roth. So Fredo still may have thought that there was something in it for him by doing something to HELP the negotiations along between Roth and The Corleones. Fredo would have wanted to prove his worth to Sonny as much as he did to Mike.

Don Cardi

The only unintentional betrayal on Fredo's part was that he truly didn't realize that his involvement would result in the nearly successful assasination attempt on Michael.

All the rest, the socializing with Ola, the talking with Roth's people, whatever information he provided that made that hit attempt possible...WAS intention and malice, and WAS motivated by pure jealousy. Because Fredo himself admitted to Michael the promise of 'something in it for him, on his own', if he helped Roth in so-called 'negotiations'.

While he may not have figured on physical harm coming to his brother as a result of the alliance with Roth, Fredo most certainly knew that he was helping someone whom Michael would not have wanted him to help. Therefore, Fredo's most certainly was an intentional betrayal, committed purely for personal gain, with malice, motivated by pure jealousy, envy and anger toward his kid brother, Don Corleone, in who's favor he was 'stepped over'.

Apple

And this is where I disagree. If there is malice or intention, then there is the action of doing something with the intnet to hurt someone. Yes there was the jealousy factor on Fredo's part. But he did not set out to get revenge on his brother intentionally because of his own jealousy. He found a situation that offered him the opportunity to show his brother that he was not as dumb as everyone thought. A situation where he was mislead into thinking that if he provided some information, he could really help out his own family, on his own, without the guidance of his brother. Where in the end, if his information helped with the negotiations he could say to Mike " See, it was my own doing that got this deal done." But he only realized after the attempt on Mike that the information that he provided was used to help out with a hit against Mike. Fredo's words to Ola in that phone conversation are : "You guys lied to me -- I don't want you to call me anymore."
Once the hit attempt was made on Michaelk, Fredo realized that he was mislead, that he messed up, and he was now scared.

His rant about being stepped over, about doing something that could help the family and finding something where there was something in it for him, was not one of addmission of intentional malice to get revenge on Mike, but more of a rant to justify in his own mind that he did not do anything wrong, and as he said in that rant " I didn't know that it was gonna be a hit." So being of the mindset that Fredo was all of his life, his ignorance, and his hunger for family recognition and respect was the driving force in his decision to provide information to Roth.

In this scenario it was the presense of ignorance and sheer stupidity and ABSCENCE of malice or intent.

Fredo never intended to hurt Michael, he just thought that he could help, on his own.


Don Cardi

"...And that there was something in it for me if I'd help 'em out. He said that - he said that you were bein' tough on the negotiations. But if they could get a little help and close the deal fast it'd be good for the family..."

These are Fredo's own words from the boathouse conversation. The first thing he mentions is the offer of something in it for him if he helped THEM out, because his brother the DON was being tough on negotiations. Stupidity was certainly involved, because if Fredo had an iota of intelligence he might have realized that Michael had his reasons for being 'tough' on negotiations. But while he never foresaw or inteded for Michael to be killed/injured...it's clear from his confession that Fredo put his own gain ahead of that of the family.

I don't think he was trying to prove to Michael he could handle something on his own...because if that were the case he might've thought to report to Michael that he'd been approached by Ola with that proposition in the first place. If he'd looked an inch beyond his jealousy and resentment at having been stepped over, he might have thought that Michael should decide what was 'good for the Family', not Hyman Roth & Johnny Ola.

What hooked him into working with Roth's people was the promise of 'something in it for him'. On his own (more of Fredo's own words).

We can see in the boathouse scene that Michael doesn't have to do much to draw out of Fredo the underlying reasons behind the betrayal. Ignorance and stupidity were of course factors in Fredo's decision to work with Roth. But he had been raised in this business. Others have mentioned that he might not have worked with Roth against older brother Sonny under the same circumstances.

Malice and intent and personal gain, over the Family, over his brother were the prominent and underlying reasons for what Fredo did. He admitted it himself. There's no way around it, even if he didn't realize it was going to be 'a hit'.

Apple

For some rerason I don't think Fredo would have betrayed Sonny they way he did Michael. If anything, Sonny probabloy would have been smart enough to give Fredo "something" even if it wasn't really "something." Fredo feared Sonny, but he underestimated his younger brother.

Of course the whole premise of Sonny being alive turns on whether he dodged the assassination attempt, and it implies that he ended up deciding not to go into the City to kill Carlo. This leaves the question what would he have done with/to Carlo?

Carlo would still have been found out for attempting to set up Sonny.


And Apple, we'll have to agree to disagree on the Fredo betrayal. No matter what anyone tells me, I do NOT believe that there was EVER an act of Malice on Fredo's part to set up his own brother. It was an act of self service, without Fredo ever realizing that he was putting Mike's life in jeapordy.

Michael's act against Fredo was a Malicious act. He intentionally ordered the killing of Fredo.

Fredo's act was not a malicious act, he did not set out to hurt his brother. Absence of Malice.


Don Cardi

Yes, it was an act of self service and true, Fredo did not realize he was putting Michael's life in jeapordy.

He may not have intentionally committed an ACT of malice, but malice was behind his actions. If it were not, he would not have intentionally worked with and for Hyman Roth behind Michael's back.

And whatever the promised and/or unforseen outcome, that is exactly what he did.

Which of course...is why he eventually had to die.

But that's another thread... !!

Apple

With that being said, do you think that if Sonny was alive, and Fredo betrayed him the way that he did Mike, would he have had Fredo killed?


Don Cardi

Probably.

And he wouldn't even wait until their mother was dead.

In fact, he'd probably kill him himself, right then & there at the moment he discovered Fredo to be the TRAITOR.

Apple

Nah, Sonny was a hot head, no question. But he had a good heart and was of the family mentality like his father. He would have kicked Fredos ass, but I don't think he would have had him killed.

Don Cardi

I agree that Sonny would not have had Fredo killed. He WAS a hothead, but he often regretted the things he did or said when he was angry. Witness how he tried to apologize to Tom for the "Pop had Genco" remark, even though it was true that Tom was not a wartime consigliere. He had a soft spot for those he loved, and I think that he lacked the ruthlessness to kill his own brother.

That being said, I also think that if Sonny were Don, Fredo would NOT have betrayed the family. Most of his anger and envy was aimed at being stepped over so that his younger brother could take over. Aside from the killings in Louie's, what had Michael really done to deserve the role of Don. Fredo and Sonny had been raised in the business. I think that also had a great deal to do with Fredo's anger. He saw Michael as a Johnny-come-lately who was being handed the keys to the executive washroom without having earned them. IMHO, that just added to the jealousy he felt.

I'm sure that prior to the act of betrayal, Michael never dreamed he'd need to have his own brother killed either.
Michael had alot of time to decide what to do with Fredo. Hot-tempered Sonny would not have been able to put the same thought into it.

You never know what a man might be driven to do.

SB is correct, Fredo would never have betrayed Sonny the way hid did Michael...further proof that malice toward Mike (even without the knowledge of a 'hit') was the driving motivation behind his assistance to Roth.

Apple

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