how did vito know??

that "it was Barzini all along" who whacked Sonny? Ive seen this 50 times and cant see the logic or where he figured this out.

Any help?

Notice in that scene that, although Vito called the meeting, Barzini sits at the head of the table. Barzini is first to respond after Vito says his piece, and Barzini speaks for the others when he says that Vito's refusal to "share" the judges "is not the action of a friend." Barzini then sets the terms: "He must let us draw the water from the well...of course he can present a bill for such services..." And when Vito says that he's willing to make accommodations, Barzini right away jumps to a conclusion: "Then it is agreed: The traffic in drugs will be allowed, and Don Corleone will give it protection in the East. And there will be the peace." He's calling all the shots.
Notice, too, that Barzini is the only one smoking a cigarette. All the "moustache Petes" are smoking cigars.

I believe that Vito suspected Barzini all along because, as he later told Tom, "Tattaglia is a pimp...alone he could never have outfought Santino." In fact, you might look at the meeting as a trap that Vito set for Barzini--and Barzini stepped in it: by asserting his leadership, he confirmed to Vito that he was behind the war all along.

Turnbull, you are correct, but there is more. When they strike the deal it is supposedly between Corleone and Tattaglia, but note that before the two embrace, Tattaglia looks to Barzini and asks what guarantee does he have that Corleone wont eventually regain strength and seek his own vengence. It is Barzini who then says Corleone is a man of his word and that they did not have to give assurances as if they were lawyers. Also when Corleone and Tattaglia "embrace" Barzini is the only other person standing. All of this makes it clear that Tattaglia is looking to Barzini for guidance and not the other way around.

Which brings up another question; Did Sollozo approach the Tattaglias first with this deal and in turn did they go to Barzini for backing? Or did Sollozo first get Barzini to back him and then cut the Tattaglias in to use them as the front family?


Don Cardi

Sollozzo probably knew the NY underworld scene, and also that Barzini was the most powerful after don Corleone. I think he went to Barzini first, and then to Tattaglia, with the guarantee that Barzini would back him (Tattaglia) up.

About Barzini acting as the 'leader' during the meeting; stupid move of him, he could as well have said: "Don Corleone, I'm the one who's betraying you."

I agree that Barzini was behind it all along.

By the way, the reason Barzini stood up when Vito and Phillip embraced was to make it more convenient for them to physically do so. Also, if you study that scene real close you can see how FFC framed it on purpose so that Vito would see it. The positions of the Dons in that scene reveals a very subtle "B" formed by their bodies or, as it is called, the Barzini Code. Vito knew right then and there that it was Barzini.

Which brings up another question; Did Sollozo approach the Tattaglias first with this deal and in turn did they go to Barzini for backing? Or did Sollozo first get Barzini to back him and then cut the Tattaglias in to use them as the front family?


Don Cardi [/QB][/QUOTE]

I would think Sollozzo approached Barzini, who in turn used Tattaglia as a "buffer."

I believe Sollozzo approached Barzini first with his drug deal. As I've posted before:

Sollozzo wanted to build a highly profitable retail sales/distribution network in the US. He needed the permission and protection of the Five Families, as well as their financial, operational and political support. He knew the Corleones were on top, but he probably figured that Vito would be too conservative to go for his deal. So, I’m guessing, Sollozzo approached Barzini first. He knew Barzini was #2, and would see that the money he’d earn from a drugs deal with Sollozzo would help him push past Vito to become the top Mafia Don.
But Barzini had his own agenda:
I’m guessing that Barzini told Sollozzo that, while he was in favor of the drugs business, he couldn’t support Sollozzo openly: Vito would feel threatened if he saw his arch-rival, Barzini, tapping into this rich vein of money, and would work against Sollozzo. Instead, Barzini suggested that Sollozzo approach Tattaglia. Why? Because Vito wouldn’t see Tattaglia "the pimp" as a threat; and Tattaglia already had a network of hookers, pimps, nightclubs and whorehouses where drugs could be distributed. Barzini must have convinced Sollozzo that if Tattaglia provided the high-risk/high-profile operational support, Vito might give him money and political protection.
So, why did Barzini seemingly turn down this immense source of profits and give Tattaglia the chance to get rich (and powerful) quick? Because he knew that Vito wouldn’t want any part of the drugs business—especially if Tattaglia was involved. Vito, “notoriously straight-laced in matters of sex,” had no respect for Tattaglia and wouldn’t touch anything that Tattaglia was involved with.
IMO, Barzini was setting up a deal that he was pretty certain would fail. He knew Sollozzo, as a “man who respects himself,” would try to kill Vito. If he succeeded, Barzini would inherit the top spot. If he failed, the Corleones would blame the Tattaglias and declare war on them. Either way, Barzini would pick up the pieces. The other Dons would go along: neither Barzini nor the other Dons would dare to try to kill Vito on their own, but if Sollozzo was willing to take the risk, who’d complain? In fact, the failed attempt made Sollozzo desperate. I’m guessing that, in order to survive, he had to promise all the Dons a piece of the drugs action in order to get their support in the war against the Corleones.
Clever Barzini! Too bad he underestimated Michael.

Thank you TB. Such fantastic insight. Great post!

So then, do you think that the Tattaglia's were aware that Barzini was behind Sollozo the whole time? I would say no. Technically they too were duped by Barzini and Sollozo.


Don Cardi

Maybe yes. In order to make such a move against Vito, they certainly were aware that they were backed up by Barzini. On the other hand, I find it unlikely that they were aware of Barzini's degree of involvement in the business. I think they also understood that at the meeting, where Barzini emerged as the peacemaker and as the new capo while Tattaglia was the one that was exposed as a rival of the Corleones.

Great thread...

I would guess that Barzini would have told Tatttaglia to minimize his involvement. I suspect that Sollozzo would have gone to Tattaglia with the proposal, and Tattaglia, who likely was in favor of it may have asked about the other families, and Sollozzo would have characteristically said "Let me worry about Barzini." It is also possible that Barzini told Tattaglia something like "If you do business with this man I won't stand in your way. Your problem will be with the Corleones."

The novel says that Tattaglia had been "led around by the nose" by Barzini. I'm guessing that Tattaglia might have started out his relationship with Sollozzo thinking that he and Barzini were equals, or that he was the top guy in the potential drug deal. But when the lead started flying, I believe Tattaglia became utterly dependent on Barzini.

Why would Sollozzo approach the Tattaglias, a family known for prostitution? I think that Sollozzo approached Barzini about a drug deal right from the beginning and the Tattaglias were just a front. Why a front? Because Barzini wanted to displace Vito as the top don and the drug deal was just the thing to do it. Barzini knew that if Sollozzo went to Vito with Barzini's backing, Vito would turn him down or would exact quite a price for his support.

But I still think that the Barzini Code played a part!

Turnbull -

Impressive analysis. But there is one further wrinkle that needs to be unpacked. When Sollozzo is meeting with Vito and the others, he makes it appear as though the Corleones are the first family he approached with his deal. When Vito asks what the Tattaglia's interest in the deal is, the Turk makes it seem as though he is surprised that Vito would know about the Tattaglias' involvement; he turns to Tom and says, "My compliments," i.e., you managed to get some information I tried to keep secret from you. But Sollozzo's expression of surprise is a brilliant bluff. As you say, Barzini doesn't want to have the fingerprints of his involvement visible. And what better way to ensure this than to make the Corleones think that, when they "learn" of the Tattaglias' involvement with Sollozzo, they have cleverly managed to acquire information that was supposed to remain secret? By pretending that the Tattaglia's involvement was supposed to be kept secret from the Corleones, and arranging for someone to "leak" this "secret" to Hagan, Barzini is sure to be kept out of the spotlight.

~90caliber

first off... Welcome 90cal.
I don't believe that this was an indication that this information was to be kept a secret... it was just information that was not offered by Sollozo and he was merely complimenting Tom on the "correctness" of his information. Sollozo would never show Vito that he intended on being less than completely upfront and honest while trying to make a deal of this calibur. And in essense, this is not a bluff at all. Sollozo is, indeed, being backed by the Tataglias (as a front of course).

Ya but the false information that Tattaglia was backing the Turk would EVENTUALLY have to be planted in the Corleone's ear. It would make sense that Tom's information was a false bug intended by Sollozo/Barzini.

yes, this is true, BUT... I believe that that part of the conversation would have come out by Sollozo b/c it was a part of the deal that the Tattaglias would guarantee the Corleone's investment... i think the whole acknowledgement of Tom by Sollozo was basically saying "Good work Tom, but I was going to tell him"

Welcome, 90caliber, and you made a very good point. But I think that Sollozzo didn't intend to keep Tattaglia's backing secret, or at least not for long. I think he was just being succinct in not mentioning Tattaglia. Or, perhaps he knew that Vito disapproved of Tattaglia's business and he didn't want to mention Tattaglia unless he had to.

But the Tattaglia connection had to come out sooner rather than later. Sollozzo was a newcomer to New York (probably an illegal immigrant at that!). If Vito were going to risk a big chunk of money, he'd have to know that Sollozzo had allies in NY who could provide him with additional backing, distribution channels, run interference with other mobsters, etc. I also agree with FrankWhite: his "my compliments" to Tom was a way of showing respect but he was gonna say so anyway.

Thanks for the replies. These exchanges are very stimulating and thought provoking.

One fact which causes me to cling to my theory is this: in the novel the narrator says, after Vito asks Sollozzo what the Tattaglia's interest in the deal is, "For the first time Sollozzo seemed to be nervous." The expression of nervousness indicates either that he did in fact feel like he got caught with his pants down, or that he wanted Vito to think that he felt like he got caught with his pants down. The word "seemed" indicates, I think, that the latter is the case -- that the nervousness was feigned, for the reasons I give in my original post. If the nervous expression was real, rather than feigned, Puzo would not, I believe, have added the word "seemed."

I agree that the involvement of the Tattaglia's had to be revealed sooner rather than later. My argument is that Sollozzo and Barzini will expect that Vito would never believe that Sollozzo is laying all his cards on the table in the meeting. By making Vito believe that he has discovered what the Turk wasn't revealing, the spotlight stays off Barzini.

Personally I never thought about it that way 90 caliber. But I don't think there is anything conclusive that could contradict your theory. Its obviously very plausible.

All of this raises another question. Sollozzo would not have tried to hit Don Corleone unless he had cleared it with Tattaglia and Barzini. After the hit happens, Tom advises Sonny to make the deal with Sollozzo. Tom is pretty sure that all the families will line up against the Corleones just to prevent another war, and that ultimately the Corleones would become outcasts. Sonny doesnt want to take this advice, and of course it is at that moment that Michael steps up and says they are going to "kill Pop" no matter what. For whatever reason, the Corleone family must have already been in decline and considered to be vulnerable. Sollozzo tells Tom during their "meeting" that the Don was "slippin" and boasts that ten years ago he could not have "gotten to him." With the death of Luca Brasi, and the wounding of the Don they are futher weakened, and we see this when Moe Green insults mIchael by telling him how the Corleones "don't have that kind of muscle anymore" and that they are "being run out of New York," and that he made his bones while Michael was going out with cheerleaders, and finally the ultimate..."I TAWK TO BARZINI..." with whom he can make a deal and still keep his hotel. Here Green is telling Michael that he doesnt fear the Corleones any more, and that no one else does either.

Yes DonT... I find this interesting as well. There is never mention of the declination of the Corleone family by anyone in the family, nor does Michael seem to believe this when taking over. I also noticed that Don Corleone seems to be held in a very esteemed light during the meeting w/ the heads of families (maybe this is just from past respect earned). Is the family delusional? Do they have a false sense of security? Or are they aware of this?

I think the respect they show Vito in the meeting is simply something left over from the old days.

The family was not delusional, so much as Santino was. He was in his own father's words a "bad Don" who did not understand the fact that the family had lost some of its strength. Vito was too far removed from the street, and the whole family got fat, happy and a little sloppy (kind of like the Roman Empire in its final centuries --- as Tom Hagen pointed out in GF II).

Once he took over Michael understood that the family was not very strong, and this is the genius of his move -- killing everyone at once to level the playing field. They have pretty much made a comeback by GFII ....note Frankie's line that the Corleones should go after Roth and the Rosatos "while we still got the muscle."

Not necessarily. If the Corleones were self-evidently slippin' before Sollozzo came on the scene, then Barzini or one of the other Dons might have made a move on them on their own. Please bear with this scenario:
--I'm guessing that Sollozzo first approached Barzini with the drug deal, believing that Barzini was the new top-guy-in-waiting and would have the most to gain from the riches to be made from drugs. But Sollozzo also needed Vito's political clout. Barzini probably egged him on, but told him that he should work through Tattaglia, whom Vito wouldn't regard as a threat, and keep his (Barzini's) support quiet.
--After Vito turned him down, Sollozzo proposed whacking Vito. Tat and Barz were probably wary of this. But Sollozzo probably convinced them that the hit would be easy because the Don was getting complacent about security (maybe what he meant by "slippin'"); that Sonny was hot for the deal, and that Tom would know it was the right thing. All of this would fall into place with Vito dead.
--Barzini, the smarter of the two Dons, would have thought: "Hey, I wouldn't move on Vito by myself. But what the hell, if Sollozzo's willing to take the risks on his own, and with Tattaglia (not me) identified to the Corleones as his ally, what have I got to lose? I bet the other Dons'll go along for the same reason--they wouldn't do it on their own, but they have nothing to lose."

Obviously the Goliath Beetle in the ointment was Vito's survival, plus his smarts. His shooting, Sonny's death and the long war weakened the Corleones. But Vito, clever fellow, played possum and exaggerated his weakness, the better to lull his enemies into complacency. Michael played the same game. Now the enemies were slippin.' The way they slipped was to show their hands and thus expose their bad intentions: Moe Green saying that the Don didn't have that much clout anymore; Barzini assuming the chairmanship of the Dons' Convention and then moving in on Tessio's territories; Tessio setting up the fatal meeting, etc.
So, as it turned out, the Corleones' weakness was temporary.

I pretty much agree with you TB, but I am still stuck with the line "could I have gotten to him 10 years ago?" I think you are right about Barzini using Tattaglia as a potential fall guy, and you are also right that Barzini figured "what the hell" when Sollozzo came to him with the proposition that he whack Vito Corleone. I think the other families saw that Sonny as the putative heir would not have the smarts his father had, and with Vito out of the way things would go their way. However, I do not belive that ten years prior Barzini or even Tattaglia would have given someone like Sollozzo and his men permission to make a hit on Vito Corleone. This is because Sollozzo was just off the boat, and because he and his people would carry out the operation. There would just be too much room for treachery in such a plan, and if the Corleone street people were on top of their game they may have foiled the plot before it ever got off the ground. I think ten years before the hit on Vito, Barzini would have told Sollozzzo, "look kid you go peddle your drugs and we'll protect you as will Tattaglia to be best of our ability, but you are going to have to live without the Corleone's political protection, and if the police catch up with you, we've got no involvement....but no, you aren't going to try to hit Vito Corleone."

The novel states that the fighting qualities of the Corleone regimes had declined over the past decade. I suppose that other Corleone qualities had declined also. So, its preeminent position in the underworld was not as secure as it had been.

But, what if Vito said yes to the deal. How would that have affected Barzini's ambition. If Barzini had ambitions, wouldn't that have been a setback to such ambitions?

But, it all seems incongruous. How does anyone know what Vito's answer will be? Noone knows about he Sonny hole in the Corleone armour until the Sollozzo meeting. If Vito does say no, how does killing Vito further the drug deal? It may enhance Barzini's position in the underworld, but it does not enhance the drug traffic. Sonny doesn't have Vito's political, legal, or personal infuence. It just doesn't make sense.

I cannot recall such a conversation from Tom.

In that scene, Frankie commented that the Corleones used to be like the Roman Empire. Tom retorted "It was once."

ooooooooohhhhhhh... thank you Olivant. I remember now. You're talking about when Tom is explaining to Frankie what must be done for his family to be taken care of.

dt, my guess is that "Ten years ago, could I have gotten to him?" was a bit of bravado on Sollozzo's part, designed to convince Tom that Vito was a declining guy who had to be pushed aside to make way for the "new order." In other words: "He deserved to die because he made it easy for me to get to him"--Darwin Comes to the Mafia.
But that doesn't mean I think your analysis is wrong--far from it. Vito probably was getting complacent after at least a decade of relative peace in the NY Mob scene. Ten years earlier, he and his people probably would have been sharper, more on their guard; and potential enemies would have been warier of moving in on him.
As you probably know: the novel states that, about a decade before the Sollozzo affair, a group of "mad dog Irish killers, with sheer Emerald Isle elan," burst through Vito's protection, and shot and nearly killed him before they were cut down, leading to Sonny's rise. I got the impression from that passage that it was less a case of Vito being careless, more of the Irish shooters' suicidal determination to get him at any cost. This always puts me in mind of an observation attributed to JFK, just weeks before his own assassination: Anyone could shoot the President as long as he had a high-powered rifle and didn't care about getting caught.

Well the idea of killing Vito is inspired by Sonny's dissention at the meeting. Sonny might have gone along w/ the deal as he displayed so at the meeting. Plus, with Vito gone a lot of the Corleone assets would have been up for grabs. Remember, the Corleones would not have lost all their political contacts if the old man dies(tom said they would lose half)so Sonny would still have some clout. But.... Sonny chooses to avenge his father instead of making the deal....a question that puzzles me is...Would Sonny have eventually taken Tom's advice to make the deal IF Michael had not come along? If Vito dies Sonny might eventually agree to the deal If he and Tom would have in fact made the deal then Barzini played this one beautifully. I tend to believe that Sonny would NEVER have listened to Tom and would have fought it out.

The decision to try and bring the drug trade to the five families was kind of a long shot anyway. None of the decisions that Barzini and Co. made were certainties, this was a risky plot against the emperor indeed.

I agree Ice... Sonny would have never made that deal against his father's wishes, especially considering the taking of his father's life (even considering Tom's "this is business not personal" speech) b/c remember he said "Well business will have to suffer". Sollozo had to die; in Sonny's eyes.

Well I don't know Frank, but you are probably right. I think it's possible Sonny might have conceded to the advice of Tom though. Luckily Mike was there to remind them that Sollozo HAD to kill pop.

Vito thought Sonny a bad don b/c he chose to kill Bruno Tattaglia, by Vito's philosophy this was not justice. But if Vito would have fought it out just like Sonny did, this again proves that Tom's desire to negotiate was wrong. Thus by this logic I don't understand why Vito did NOT consider Tom a bad consig. Sonny did(and would have done)exactly what Vito would have done, fight it out.

Well Ice... Vito knew that Tom, although a good negotiator and very wise, was NOT a wartime consig., so I believe Vito did not hold him accountable for the things that he knew him to be untalented at... afterall, who holds Michael Jordan accountable for being a bad golfer? (extreme, i know, but i think you get what I'm saying )

I believe Vito came to the conclusion that Sonny would be a bad Don long before he killed Bruno Tattaglia. You can see the exasperation in Vito's face during the wedding conferences in his office (Vito whistles and says, "Hey, did you learn anything?") and especially after Sonny's Sollozzo meeting gaffe. Vito's remark about not considering Tom a bad consigliere was in the context of his thinking Sonny was a bad Don. And anyway, Vito chose Tom as consigliere. But by that point, Michael was in charge, and Vito wasn't going to contradict Michael, especially in front of Tom. For all we know, Vito might privately have tried to talk Michael out of removing Tom as consigliere. As you probably know, Ice, in the novel, after Sonny's assassination Tom admits to himself that he's no wartime consigliere.

TB, this may be a post for a different thread, but after reading your post, something came to my mind (and it may have been addressed before). When is Tom Consig.??? When Michael introduces him to Kay, his position is that "i think he's GOING TO BE CONSIGLIERI one day".

It's probably true that Vito realized that Sonny would never be much more than muscle. Sonny's sending Michael to kill Sollozzo would have confirmed that for Vito.

Keep in mind that Vito told Tom that he advised Michael regarding these things and that things were going to happen that Tom could not be a part of.

I think one of the challenges of posting is that it may not be clear if a post addresses the novel, the film, or someone else's post.

A couple of points regarding some of the more recent posts:

1) Concerning the decline of the Corleone family. Olivant writes:

"The novel states that the fighting qualities of the Corleone regimes had declined over the past decade. I suppose that other Corleone qualities had declined also. So, its preeminent position in the underworld was not as secure as it had been."

The regimes indeed were not in the best shape, but note that Michael states (in the novel) that Vito was the only one who understood that political connections are "worth more than 10 regimes." And in the movie Tom says, "we have the gambling and the unions, which are the best things to have." So I think that prior to the Sollozzo business, there was no marked decline, apart from that in the "muscle end of the family." This is not insignificant, of course, but Michael's comment about the value of political connections seems largely to compensate for the deterioration in regime firepower. Regarding Sollozzo's comment about the "Don slippin," I think it refers primarily, if not entirely, to his recent sloppiness regarding personal security measures.

2) A brief observation regarding Tom's capacities as consigliere: at one point in the novel Vito says that "any man should be allowed one foolishness in his life. I have had mine." About a hundred pages later, the narrator writes: "And of course an Irish consigliere had been the only foolishness the Don had ever perpetrated. No Irishman could hope to equal a Sicilian for cunning."

I apologize for posting about the novel here, but since I'm responding to previous entries, I'd like to keep it in the same thread.

Vito's reference to his one foolishness was to his vulnerability to physical attack, not to Tom as Consigliere.

That's clear, but what I mean to point out is that the narrator thinks differently, and is probably right in suggesting that it was choosing an Irishman as consigliere that was in fact Vito's true act of foolishness. I don't mean to say that Tom is incompetent. He's damn good, but not as good, according to the narrator, as a Sicilian would have been in his place.

I'm assuming this is a deleted scene contained in the saga? Sure wish I had a copy, I have not seen those edited scenes in quite some time.

(but your pt is well taken TB, thnx. )

Two points here:

1. On Barzini, I think we have all reached a consensus that Barzini was using Tattaglia as a sort of front man on the drug issue. Assuming that to be the case, why would Barzini make such a bone-headed move as to approach Carlo to set up the hit on Santino? Why wouldn't he have used Tattaglia?


2) On the issue of Santino, I agree that Vito did not have a lot of confidence in him, and that may well be why there was so much tension between Vito and Michael while Michael was in his rebellious phase. IMO Vito was torn between Michael becoming "Senator Corleone, Governor Corleone....something" and Michael coming to work for him. Obviously he knew Michael had the smarts that Sonny lacked, and he probably knew deep down that Michael would be a better Don. Although he wanted Michael to have some kind of success outside of the family, he still derided him for his military service and for his choice of a non-Sicilian girlfriend. He had to know that military service in WWII would be a prerequisite for a run for political office, and he would have had to understand that the appearance of distance between Michael and him was also necessary for Michael to be successful in the world of politics. Perhaps he was secretly pleased with Michael going out on his own...Clemenza says as much to Michael when he tells him "We was all proud of you bein a war hero and all.....YOUR FATHER TOO."

Being a practical man, the Don did his best to train Santino, and perhaps he hoped that Tom Hagen could keep a lid on his temper. He had to know, however that Santino would have never been able to keep the politicians and judges in his pocket as he had done, so perhaps in a way he foresaw the collapse of the family.

Don T... I have been struggling w/ this concept of whether Vito was torn between Michael becoming a Senator or Governor and coming to work for him as of late. And I came to ma POV of this: Vito did, indeed, want Michael to become a senator or governor of some sort, but he also wanted him involved with the family. One may think... how is this possible??? The only thing that must happen for this to be possible is to legitimize the Corleone family. This way, Michael would lead the family in a legitament light of business. This is not to say that there would not still be illegal practices going on (after all "whose being naive???"). I would like to hear more POV's on this, if any one else has ever had this same line of reasoning.

He foresaw the collapse of the family if Michael chooses to go his own way. Vito tells Mike in the book to come work for him after college. The reasoning you give Don T may have been precisely why he needed Mike. B/c as TB has discussed before, if Sonny lives then he and Mike would form a 'two headed monster' of sorts w/ Mike running the legitimate side and Santino running the olive oil business. Sonny may not have been able to keep the judges and politicians in his back pocket but Mike probably would be capable.

Good question.
I think that no matter what Vito's awnser was, yes or no, Barzini had plans on thwarting the Corleones all along. Why else use Tattaglia as a decoy? The fact that Barzini attempts to mislead Vito must mean he has intentions of foul play. Whether it was simply for money or to challenge Vito's top spot, Barzini's deal seems to be a 'trojan horse' the whole time, and Vito's awnser could not have changed that.

I suspect that Barzini knew all along that Vito would not go for the deal. He was too straight laced, and too cautious that the drug business was unlike "women and gambling" and the other things the pezzanovante denied the people. Because Vito's strength was with politicians and judges, the drug market would be a tough sell, and he could not have held on to many of them.

Overall Barzini was in a "win-win" situation at that point because if Vito had gone along with it and lost political support, the Corleones would be further weakened, and it would only be a matter of time before the likes of Tessio would defect, and before Santino would take over and run the family into the ground anyway. On the other hand if Vito refused, and Sollozzo under the cover of the Tattaglias whacked Vito, he would have been able to consolidate his power much more quickly. What he didnt count on was Vito surviving, and Michael getting into the family business.

I think Tattaglia was simply a pawn and had no part in the actual planning of Barzini's scheme. Aside from that, I don't think Tattaglia had the skill set that was required to approach Carlo. He was good w/ da whores but thats about it. This was Barzini's plan and Tattaglia was just a cog in that plan.

My guess is that Tattaglia probably had no clue about the Carlo set up nor much else that did not concern his role directly.

Frank, to your earlier post: At the time that Michael was sitting with Connie, Genco was still the consigliere, even though he was on his deathbed. After he died, Tom took over. The novel says that Vito made Tom consigliere after the hospital visit. Sorry I took so long to answer, but I've been away the last couple of days.
As I've posted before: I believe Vito wanted Michael to be a senator or governor so that he could work toward "legitimizing" the family business. If Vito had his druthers, and if Michael were in a powerful political position, he might work to legalize gambling on either a statewide or nationwide basis, so that the Corleones could move their pre-eminence in illegal gambling to the legit world. And Michael could channel Vito's clout with unions to support for his own political ends. "His" unions would then be used as patronage and a base for further riches. Sonny would be the head of a decreasingly important "illegitimate" Corleone operation, and would eventually become obsolete. An interesting question: how would a "legitimate" Michael and an "illegitimate" Sonny cooperate/compete/oppose each other after Vito was gone?

TB, thankyou. I actually came to this realization last night (after watching the deleted scenes). I didn't, however, know that Vito made Tom consigliere after the visit. I believed that he was just sort of consig. by default.

And that is a very interesting scenario you described w/ Mike heading the "legit" business while Sonny heading "illegitimate" parts... I believe this to be the optimal scenario. I think it would run seamlessly. I seem to remember a great family in American history who ran something of this sort to perfection... OH YEAH, KENNEDY.

How realistic was this idea? Forgetting the family ties, which could have been played down by people who worked for the newspapers who were also on the payroll, I don't think Mike would have been much of a politician. He was cold, secretive, and not at all likeable. For an Italian Catholic to win in the late 50's early 60's he would have had to have had the level of charm JFK had.

I think the only way Micheal gets elected anything is if he moves to Chicago and they fix the election.

good point DonT... but we must remember that Michael went through a metamorphis of sorts as a result of some of the exact actions which Vito would have liked Mike to forego in light of becoming a politician. At first meeting, I thought Mike to be very charismatic and likeable. Remember, he told Kay exact reccollections (sp?)of events, being very open. It's only after subsequent events is Mike cold and secretive.

Excellent observation. The Michael we see at the wedding is very different than the Michael we see in the black fedora walking down the street proposing to Kay.

Yes, it is an excellent obseration, Frank! I based my Michael-the-pezzanovante scenario on "if Vito had his druthers," which obviously didn't include Michael killing Sollozzo and McCluskey and getting exiled to Sicily. The pre-Sollozzo Michael just might have had enough charm to be an electable politician.

As soon as Vito saw Tattaglia's prints on the deal wouldn't he have seen that someone sent him a deal they were pretty certain would fail?
Hard to say yes but Vito had to have seen the deal as a declartion of war as soon as he knew Tattaglia was involved. But the fact that he later asks for Santino's and Tom's opinion shows that he had not yet made up his mind, that maybe he was atleast considering the deal despite Tattaglia's involvement.

ANY THOUGHTS???

Also.....When Tom tells Vito that Tattaglia is involved, we don't know if this is the first Vito hears of it, or if he already knew this at the wedding. But....if Vito does have this knowledge on his daughter's wedding day(and thus had already rejected the deal b/c of Tattaglia) then Vito would be extra sure NOT to invite the Turk to the wedding. No Sicilian can refuse a request on his daughter's wedding day, so he did not want the Turk and his drug proposal hanging around. But if instead he wanted the deal and embraced it with open arms, then he would have had Sollozo at the wedding and let him request political protection and 1million cash. If this was a snub by Vito then obviously the Turk did not pick up on it, b/c he appears to be surprised when hearing Vito's refusal.


EDIT--I guess what I'm driving at is...
When Vito learns of Tattaglia's involvement(which may have been before 'we' the audience find out) did he see this supposed 'deal' as a declaration of war? Since all involved knew Vito would never touch a deal w/ Tattaglia involved, it would seem so.

No, I think this whole Sollozzo thing is spelled out pretty well. After Vito has finished up his business and asks if there is enything else, Tom mentions that they have to give Sollozzo a day "next week" and Vito tells Tom that he has to go to California first to fix things with this movie big shot.

In the movie (there are deleted scenes which change the timing) when Tom gets back, and after Khartoum is dog food, Vito asks Tom if he is too tired to talk about Sollozzo and Tom says no, he slept on the plane. Then Tom briefs Vito on what he knows...that Sollozzo is a top narcotics man, good with a knife, but only in matters of business. That he's done two terms in prison in Italy for narcotics, that Tattaglia has to be in it for a lot of money, and that he wants the Corleones to back him.
Vito then asks Tom and Sonny for their advice. Tom says that drugs is the future, and that if they dont get into it now, it will hurt business down the road, and weaken the family. Sonny only says there's a lot of money in that white powder. Sonny then stupidly says "So what's it gonna be Pop?" If the Don had his mind made up he hid it from his consigliere and his son, which is plausible. He was the final decision maker, and he did not want anyone...not even them to know what he was thinking until he met with Sollozzo. At that meeting the Don says no, and wishes Sollozzo luck "so long as your interests don't conflict with mine." Which of course they would. That is where Sonny makes his error of judgment, and it is where Sollozzo sees a ch*nk in the Corleone armor. The real qustion here is if Sonny had kept his mouth shut would it have been necessary to send Luca at all? Also did Sonnny's indicatiion he liked the deal make it easier for Sollozzo to sell Barzini on the idea that Vito should be taken out?

I always inferred that Vito had made up his mind not to go for the Sollozzo deal well before he met with Sollozzo. (In the novel, before the meeting, he tells Tom, "What he will propose will be an infamita.") He was putting off the meeting, which is why Tom said what he said at Connie's wedding. So, I believe that Vito just wasn't thinking things through about the meeting, and therefore he didn't really know or care who was backing Sollozzo. That was one of his big errors.

There's no question that Sonny's enthusiasm for the deal helped Sollozzo to convince Tattaglia, Barzini and perhaps other Dons that he could whack Vito and get the deal. No doubt he told them that, although Sonny was a hothead, his greed for the deal, combined with Tom's endorsement, would save the day.

I think that Vito had to have known that his refusal would bring on a war. So....while he tells Tom to go ahead and set the meeting he already knew where this thing was going.

If my speculation is true then the wedding scene has all the more importance. The wedding would represent one last big 'hurrah' and party before the war began and things changed. While Vito may have appeared to be focused on the wedding and the business that day, in this back of his mind he is preparing for a huge sudden change that is likely to occur with the upcoming war.

ANY THOUGHTS???

Absolutely. And that is why he summons Luca Brazi and sends him to try and find out what Sollozzo and Tattaglia's plans are since he refused the deal.


Don Cardi

Exactly...he wants to know "what is under [Sollozzo's] fingernails."

Here's a question about this which I have never figured out. When Sollozzo and Tattaglia have their meeting with Luca, Sollozzo seems to know why Luca is there. This implies that Luca had a previous meeting with someone...probably Tattaglia indicating he was unhappy with the Corleones, etc. If this is so, then Luca would have reoprted back to Vito something to the effect "they are interested in me, they are setting up a second meeting," which should have tipped the Don that they were actively recruiting muscle. If that's so wouldnt that tend to make Vito want security beefed up even more? After all it seems Fredo was in charge of Vito's security because when Sonny is getting on Clemenza's case about Paulie, Clemenza passes the buck to Fredo by saying he asked Fredo about replacing Paulie, but Fredo said no.

Therefore Vito would have known at Connie's wedding that a war was on the way, unless he did not yet know Tattaglia was involved. But I think Tattaglia or not he had to figure one or more of the families were involved and that his refusal would bring their wrath.
Thus, while Vito is dancing and having fun and trying to deal w/ the business of the wedding day, this impending war must have been on his mind as well.
Thus, much of the dialogue and character interactions of that wedding scene would have to be analyzed with this fact in 'our' minds.

The novel makes it clear that Luca had extensive interaction with the Tattaglias for months before the meeting.

I hate to be the odd man out in this distinguished company, but...
...I don't believe Vito thought that his refusal would bring on a war, because if it did, he wouldn't have said "no," or at least not "no" outright. I believe it was part of his complacency--how he was slippin'--that he thought he could just say "no" and Sollozzo and Tattaglia would go away peacefully.

He sent Luca to find out what Tat and Sol had under their fingernails after Sonny made his fatal gaffe at the meeting. Vito said his first "no" to Sollozzo before Sonny's greed revealed the ch*nk in his armor. He was smart enough to see that Sonny's gaffe might put him in danger, but not smart enough to see the real threat.

Right but Luca was already in the building during the Sollozo meeting. So he must have intended to call on Luca to do something before Sonny made his 'gaffe'.

True enough TB. But, still, Vito could not have possibly thought that anyone would have bought Luca's story of dissatisfaction with the Corleones. And I just am not buying Vito's giving up his greatest asset just to find out if Sollozzo wants a war as some have suggested.

Well, the real reason that Luca was dispatched to meet with Sol and Tat was so that we could witness the unforgettable garrot-and-handstab scene--in other words, a filmic device. But, if it seems crazy that Vito would think they'd believe that Luca was ready to quit him and join them, and that Vito would give up his biggest asset to learn about the fingernail dirt, perhaps it was another sign that he was slippin'.

Speaking of that scene, how was the hitman able to sneak up on Luca? Everyone on that side of the bar had a wall of mirrors to stare into.

I can't think of any 'guise,' other than that of a traitor, which would enable Luca to obtain information from Sollozo/Tattaglia's mouth. How else could he get them to talk about the deal? If they did not think there was the possibility of swaying Luca over to their side they would not talk to him.

So in my opinion, although it was a risk for Vito, there would be no other 'angle' that Luca could play in order to infiltrate Sollozo&co and then obtain extrapolative information from them.

That's the whole point though. There was no way that Vito could have figured, imagined, or speculated that Sollozzo would believe for a second that Luca was going to betray Vito, directly or indirectly, unless Vito was slippin'. There was no way that Vito could figure, imagine, or speculate that Sollozzo was going to tell Luca anything of value unless Vito was slippin'.

Agreed. But in place of "slippin'" I would write "completely senile."

I see your logic Olivant, but I'm not willing to add this one to the always growing list of 'Puzo/FFC errors' b/c it still fits into the story.

1.)If Sollozo wants war then he will first whack Luca(who the don has delivered to him with a big red ribbon on top). Vito knows Sollozo will not buy the idea of Luca being a traitor and this is a bonus! It's a bonus b/c if Sollozo actually thinks Luca is recruitable, then he will try and recruit him, as opposed to whacking him out. (Sollozo whacking Luca is good for Vito b/c he is now aware of the impending war)

2.)As Turnbull said, maybe the old man was slippin'.

EDIT--Remember the comparison Puzo makes between Luca and Sonny. Neither are afraid of death, in fact they welcome it and are in search of it! Puzo describes Sonny's death as a sort of relief for him, something that finally controls all of the built up energy that he himself could never control. Death is the only thing that can relieve them of this burden of life. Luca did not fear death, he ONLY feared death at the hands of Don Corleone. Luca had no problem going on a suicide mission.

I am not willing to concede at all that Vito would sacrifice one of his most potent weapons just to find out if Sollozzo intended to make war unless Vito was indeed slippin'. As a dramatic artifice, it served FFC's screenplay. But a thinking Vito would never have done it.

I don't see this move by Vito as sacraficing Luca. This by no means was a sacraficial suicide mission. Michael sending Lampone into an airport, to kill Hyman Roth, with feds all around him, was a sacraficial suicide mission. But an attempt to infiltrate a family, over the course of 3 or 4 months, is not a sacraficial suicide mission.

I think that when we make observations such as this one, we fail to keep in mind that Luca was on this mission for 3 or 4 months, and did not attempt to carry it out over the course of a few days. That makes a big difference. If not Luca, then who else would Vito send? Others were either way too close to Vito or not close enough in the chain of command to make Sollozzo and company believe that they were thinking of switching sides. Had close people like Tessio or Clemenza been sent on a mission like that, Sollozzo and company would have never believed them from the get go. And sending someone not close enough to Vito would be fruitless because Sollozzo and company would have no use for someone like that. So someone like Luca may have actually been the perfect choice for a job like this one.

Keep in mind that Luca was one of the most powerful assets that Vito had, and the other families knew it. It had to have already been part of Sollozzo, Barzini and Tattaglia's plan to neutralize Luca in some way. As I've said in other posts, that part of the plan by Sollozzo and company was to take out Luca no matter what because with Luca out of the way it would make the odds better for Sollozzo and company to defeat the Corleones. Therefore I think, that no matter if Sollozzo and company believed Luca or not, their plan was to take him out regardless.

After reading some posts and re-thinking the whole situation, I have to now agree that Vito was slipping and did NOT realize that there was going to be a war. For if he did, he would have never been caught off guard, the way that he was, when he was shot. If he really and truly suspected that a war was going to start, he would have never left himself as vulnerable as he did.


Don Cardi

Vito knew their plan was to take Luca out regardless. Then by sheer logic alone the mission would have to be sacraficial b/c Vito & Luca both knew that Sollozo would take him out when given the chance.

Luca was indeed staking them out for a few months, I imagine the Turk was using this time to make Vito think that things had cooled down a bit. That he was taking the Luca bait possibly, and that with the few month time period passed it would appear that Sollozo had moved along, away from Vito to someone else.




Again, this was some time after the initial meeting w/ Sollozo. Vito might have bought into the idea that Sollozo was indeed moving on. Plus, most importantly, Vito was waiting for the Luca hit to signify the start of the war. If he had gotten word of the Luca hit then he would have known to take cover. But, the word never came b/c Sollozo whacked them both in the same time period.
To quote my favorite BB poster--"Clever Sollozo!"

Ice, you, I and everyone else know that Sollozzo planned to kill Vito, and probably came to that decision after Vito said no and Sonny betrayed his greed. Therefore, we know that Luca was doomed when he went to meet with Sol and Tat.

But Vito didn't know it. When he called Luca in, he said, "I'm a little worried about this Sollozzo fella...[emphasis added]" He should have been a lot worried. That's why he was slippin'.

...with a name like barzini you wouldn't think he'd need vito to "share" any judges at all...

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Agreed TB, but I still say clever Sollozo, b/c if he had not corresponded the hit times so well then Vito knows to take cover.

So...I still think Vito's plan COULD have been two-fold. The first to see what Sollozo had under his fingernails. The second, which Vito did NOT EXPECT to need, was Luca the sacrificial guinea pig (who's death would signal the start of the great war).