Corleone Christmas

I seem to remember somewhere there is a consensus that Vito was shot on or about December 21. That would mean that at the earliest, Michael would have gone to Kay to tell her to go home, and then go to the hospital and get hit by McCluskey on the 22nd. The following morning, the 23rd would have been when
Michael told everyone about his idea to kill Sollozzo and a meeting would have been arranged shortly thereafter. As I recall when the meeting was held there were no signs of Christmas decorations in Louis Restaurant indicating it was after New Years' or even Jan 6, the feast of the Epphany when catholics traditionally took their decorations down, that the meeting took place.
Does this mean there was a sort of ceasefire over the holiays?
And if so who cooked the Corleone's Christmas Dinner? Mamma or Clemenza?

Just because there were no decorations up doesn't mean it wasn't Christmas or Christmas time.
I learned in The Godfather Returns that Italians or Sicilians never use Christmas trees in their homes. Can't remember the reason why, but I assume all other decorations are significantly probably decreased too.

Doubtful.

Mama would have been busy going to the hospital to be by Vito's side. Clemenza was busy going to the mattresses. Sandra (Sonny's wife) probably took over the cooking chores.

You're taking the word of Mark Winegardner on Italian culture? The guy's a boob.

We don't discuss Mark Winegardner at the table.

Welcome to the boards.

So you're saying the Christmas tree fun fact is untrue?

Yes, and it wasn't fun anyway.

It's quite possible Vito was shot on December 21, 1945. That day was a Friday. Vito says to the guy who's helping him with his coat, "Merry Christmas, Dano." Since Xmas fell on the following Tuesday, perhaps the salutation indicated that Genco Pura Olive Oil Co. would be closed until after Xmas.

Michael got to the Mall that night. Tom was kidnapped and released that night. BUT:

Since none of the other families were involved yet, we can assume it was still between Tattaglia/Sollozzo and the Corleones. Bruno Tattaglia was killed very soon after Vito was shot. But Sonny said that Sollozzo wanted a meeting, and that Bruno's killing canceled out Vito's shooting. So, in effect, Sollozzo was proposing a truce between Tatt/Sol and the Corleones until the meeting.

As for the restaurant: We did see a "Happy New Year" decoration in the back. It could have been in anticipation of 1/1/46 (if the meeting took place before 1/1), or it could have been left over (if the meeting took place after 1/1). I strongly tend to believe the former. I doubt that anyone would have wanted the final accounting to be delayed until after the New Year (as in Michael advising Sonny, "You can't wait..."). The absence of visible Xmas decorations in the restaurant could mean that the meeting happened after Xmas but before New Years, by which time they might have taken down the decorations. Or it might mean that the camera angle didn't pick up Xmas decorations.

http://www.artsandmusicpa.com/articles/xmastraditions.htm

"Some families in Italy have a Christmas tree like those commonly displayed in the US", but most have a "ceppo" or just a Nativity scene, apparently.

Well that's why you're assuming! You're making assumptions off of the same writer who tells us that Fredo, who was once banging cocktail waitresses two at a time, really liked men. The same author who wants us to believe that the Don of the most powerful mob family in the country got handjobs in the movie theater from his wife.

Italian / Sicilians, at least the ones that I grew up around always had Christmas Trees in their homes.

What the hell does a guy, with a name like Winegartner know about Italians / Sicilians and there traditions?

We make it a practice NEVER to use any references to Winegartner's books in this thread. They have absolutely no value in the world of the Godfather Trilogy.

It's an infamia!

Listen, you're new here and very welcome to be here, but please, take it from someone who owns property in southern Italy and has been going every 2 or 3 years since I was a kid, several times at Christmas: Italians DO put Christmas trees up at Christmas.

Are you sure you're not Mark Winegardner? It wouldn't be the first time that asshole tried to infiltrate these boards.

Hahaha no I'm not Mark Winegardner. I just have a lot of respect for official canon of the Godfather and thought the books were okay. Nothing even close to the "infamia" that Part III was.
Sure parts of the books are boring, but absolutely nothing is contradictory with the original novel, and I just don't understand why you guys hate it that much.

Because they suck.

You can't respect the official canon AND enjoy those opportunistic pieces of trash. The guy's a fuckin' momo.

I got nuttin' more to say.

Come on, specifically, what about it sucks?

and pizzaboy: aren't the Winegarnder novels official canon? I'm pretty sure they were sanctioned by Puzo's estate.

I totally agree that they no way measure up with the original, and I'll probably never reread them like I will the original, but I still respect the info within and consider it canon.

Those retarded books have their own forum, but you're not likely to find any advocates there.

Really, leave it alone.

If you would like to continue a discussion about Winegartner's GF books, please start a topic about it in the appropriate thread : THE GODFATHER RETURNS

Thanks.

I don't recall anything of substance in the novel or film that indicates when "around" Christmas Vito was shot.

Since Sollozzo hadn't been murdered yet, there was no reason for a war and, therefore, a cease fire.

Sonny, in the book, seems to mention that it is three days between Don Vito getting shot and Michael proposing that he would kill Solozzo and McCluskey. Olivant is right, there is nothing that says a specific date, but it is clearly around the X-Mas season.

Before Xmas, because the novel and the film refer to or show Xmas shopping. Plus the novel says that Michael intended to marry Kay "the week of Christmas."

The back page of the newspaper being read by Mike (when he learned that Vito was shot) has a headline about a boxing match between Tony Janiro and Humberto Zavila. That fight was held Friday, December 21, 1945 at New York's Madison Square Garden (62 years ago today).

Guys, please be a little more open to others' "take" on the continuing story as written by Winegardner. Personally, I don't like his stories and feel he did a terrible job in telling them but thats no excuse for name calling (against a fellow member) here.

Winegardner, on the other hand, is an open target.

Regarding this whole Christmas time identification....there are lights on trees outside the hospital, but something that I always found a little uncharacteristic is the lack of people at the hospital. I know Michael says to Sonny on the phone, "I got here late", but how late? All we see is one nurse. No visitors, no doctors, no maintenance people. Artistic license I guess. It does create a eerie, ominous mood.

What hospital is it? Do we know? Any reference in Lebo's book. I don't recall any.

The interior scenes of Mike visiting Vito in the hospital were shot either in the New York Eye and Ear Hospital on 14th Street OR the Lincoln Medical Center on East 149th Street in the Bronx.

Remember, it was supposed to be "empty" (to facilitate the hit on Vito).

French Hospital was the name used for the hospital.

I would also think that back then, that late at night, it wouldn't be uncommon for there to be a lack of staff.

Didn't he go and have dinner at the hotel with Kay before he went to see his father? So it would have had to have been late. At least it appeared that way.

And Enzo may have even decided to go there after hours as not to be seen visiting a Mafia Don.

A baker's free time would be late at night.

Winegartner's a pimp he could have never out written Mario Puzo.
ANd besides I hate that god damn Winegartner, if he keeps chiseling my territory we'll have nothing left to build on.

Dammit, you guys are all very good at doing this on the board. I can't do it.

Yes, Michael tells Sonny on the phone that he got there late. I too thought there should have been more people at the hospital, that they couldn't have gotten rid of all of them even though it was probably a small hospital without much staff and in the evening if not at night. McCluskey had no authority over hospital staff. However, the staff in the switchboard room leaves a half-eaten sandwich, so they exited. But if you are going to murder someone, you should get rid of the nurse too. But, then again, you have to consider dramatic license for effect.

As far as the fight ad in the newspaper goes, the ad could have been printed at any time prior to the fight.

By the way, I concur with SC. A large degree of respect is due when posting on the Board.

The back page of the paper wasn't an ad; it was the results of the fight. The headline read "Janiro Outpoints Zavala".

In real life, middleweights Tony Janiro and Humberto Zavala fought in the main event at the Garden that night. Janiro won in a unaminous decision (knocking down Zavala at the final bell). (BTW - Janiro went on to fight the "Raging Bull" Jake LaMotta about a year later; he lost to LaMotta in a decision).

Just my 2 cents. My cousins in Sicily never had a Christmas tree. They know about them, but I only have one cousin who started putting one up a few years ago.

Courtesy of pizzaboy (in another thread) here's another newspaper reporting Vito's shooting. Its dated Friday, December 21st:





Edit: Apparently the paper reporting Vito's shooting is a "mockup" of a real paper probably dated two years earlier. The first paragraph reports that Vito was shot at 4 p.m. The rest of the column, in slightly different print style, reports about a general in WWII.

I can't read the type under the "O'Dwyer Probe" headline. But, if it's really from '43, the jury probe could have been looking at Murder Inc., which O'Dwyer and his assistant, Burt Turkus, had started investigating in '40. If so, how appropriate!

Well then, the newspaper headline settles it. Vito was shot on Dec. 21st. Now, we don't know how much time transpired between that and the Sollozzo meeting. Since Mike's face looked pretty good at the meeting, that either reflects a movie production decision or that Mike's face had enough lapsed time to heal pretty good. I believe the former. Still it's probable that either side wanted too much time to elapse before attempting a peace or another try at Vito.

"We can't wait. I don't care what Sollozzo says about a deal, he's gonna kill Pop, that's it. That's the key for him. Gotta get Sollozzo."


However, I suspect that you may be correct Olivant in that they waited a while before hitting Sollozo and McClusky. According to Geoff's GF Website timeline, Michael did NOT go to Sicily until March.

You know how we may be able to find the answer to your question of how much time elapsed between the hit attempt on Vito and the killing of Sollozo and McClusky? The Montague scene, after the hit on Sollozo and McClusky, that show all the headlines of "Police Hunt Cop Killer," "CIty Cracks Down," etc. etc.

If I get a chance, later on tonight I will go to those scenes and see if I can catch the dates on the newspapers in that scene by freeze framing the scene.

Did they have 7 fish dishes and pasta and olive oil (I have no idea how to spell "al-ye, ool-ye" ?

While ya'll are postng about Italian Christmas, surf over to my Amici Italiani thread and post about Italian Christmas cookies.