Kay's abortion

I wanted to ask a question about Kay's abortion which might be answered in the novel, I haven't read it so I don't know. What I don't understand about the situation is that Michael was very much about his family, but especially abou his children obviously wanting a male to take over the business. Why then is Kay, pregnant with his baby, allowed to go out to different places without a bodyguard or anything? If there was a bodyguard there they would have known she was going to an abortion clinic or whatever and would have been able to tell I guess Tom at that point.

Books and movies have perpetuated this idea about hordes of bodyguards accompanying Mafiosi, etc. wherever they go. It's just not true. There is no real time evidence of such. Besides the cops, other Mafiosi, and reporters, people don't even know who they are. In fact, most cops, and reporters, and Mafiosi don't know who they are. Assuming that other Mafiosi are following the rules, Kay would have been untouchable. Even if she were attended, she could have easily desguised her abortion as any medical procedure.

In addition, I don't believe that abortion was legal at the time that Kay had hers performed. She would have had to hide the true purpose of her visits to the "doctor" anyway. Who would've known, unless the bodyguard followed her into the ob/gyn's examination room.

Yes, but the other Mafiosi were NOT following the rules! They shot up Michael's home, in his bedroom, where his children play with their toys, where he sleeps with Kay. So obviously the Mafiosi did NOT care if Kay or the children were killed in their attempt to kill Michael! So therefore DMC's question, in the cirlce of what had taken place, is NOT out of the realm! Michael could not know if they would now attempt to kill his wife or children, so a bodyguard would have been assigned to them. As a matter of fact there is a scene where Kay attempts to leave the estate to go shopping and she is stopped by Tom. So DMC's question is a legitimate one. But even if she did have bodyguards, as Sicilian Babe has said as far as they know she would be visiting a doctor, after all she was pregnant. And that doctor in all likelyhood performed an illegal abortion! But the bodyguards wouldn't need to know that.


Don Cardi

Got a question that's quasi-related, but I didn't think it was worthy to start a new thread.

Did Mike really love Kay?

I just never saw a lot of love there for her except for at the beginning of One. I get the idea that he was more looking for someone with whom to start a family with. I haven't read the book, and I know that Michael has a conversation with Vito in which he says that he's "very happy" with his wife and children. Just wondering what you all thought.

Actually, I think this HAS been a separate thread!

I think that Michael never truly loved Kay. In the beginning of their relationship, I think he loved that she was as opposite as possible from an what his family wanted or expected. I think he was rebelling against his anticipated role in the family, and Kay was part of that rebellion. Later on, after Appollonia's death, he was determined to bring the Corleone Family into a new world. He wanted to be legitimate. Kay, a Northeast WASP, was as legitimate as you can get. I'm sure he coldly acquired her as he acquired any potential asset for his business.

Sorry to be repetitive.

No, in the novel Kay does not have an abortion. It was an idea of Talia Shire, which FFC inserted in the part 2 plot.
Abortion clinic? I have no idea what kind of clinics were in America in those days, but I speculate that an "abortion clinic" would not have been acceptable.

Novel only covers the flashbacks of the second part.

If a woman wants to get an abortion she'll get an abortion no matter how many bodyguards are around her. There is no love stronger than what a mother feels for her child. But when a woman comes to the point to get an abortion, no one is entitled to be the judge of the matter. Kay made a mistake to marry Mike, she knew very well that Mike had committed murder. The rest of what she did was the consequence of her first mistake.

One thing I like about the Board is the tangent subjects that are so much a part of our posts. One just came up addressing abortion. Noone is entitled to be the judge of a women's decision to kill her flesh and blood. Well, Mike killed his flesh and blood - his brother. Nothing wrong with that, right?

Well, if you're going to weigh right vs. wrong in general, then of course it was as wrong of Mike to kill Fredo as it was to kill Sollozzo, McClusky, Carlo, Tessio, the Heads of the 5 Families, Moe Green, Hyman Roth and Fabrizio (to name a few). But no more or less wrong then any murder or betrayal any of those people had taken part in against the Corleone Family.

However.

If you're talking strictly about business and the one he was in, then the fact that Fredo was flesh and blood played no role (except for the delaying of the murder until after their mother's death) and was the RIGHT business decision....since it was the direct result of Fredo making the WRONG decision, which was to betray HIS own flesh and blood for his own gain and benefit, thereby almost causing his own brother's death.



Apple

I don't remember if I ever judged Mike about that one either. Even I've said many times that if my father's life or my family's lives were at the stake, I might have done the exact same thing. Everyone gets the empathy when the story is being told from his/her point of view and neither you nor I should judge them. I never said abortion is right or wrong. I merely said when there have been mothers that chose to die with their child while fathers simply ran away, when that's the mother who is totally in charge of a child during nine months pregnancy and us humans don't lay eggs to sleep on it each for a while and then you see a mother decides to kill her dearest child, no one is entitled to judge her, except God which you are once again more than welcome not to believe in him.

Yes, I don't blame Kay for getting an abortion in that situation, however I blame her for getting married to someone whom already knew had turned into a monster.

I disagree that Kay 'already knew' Michael was a monster when she married him. I think that although she certainly knew the type of business he was involved in and that his father and associates were known killers...she must've truly wanted to believe at some level that he would legitimize the business and not conduct it in the same fashion. She made herself believe it, as she made herself believe he wasn't responsible for Carlo's murder.

The realization of what he was took place gradually over several years ... and culminated in that exchange in the hotel room.

Kay was certainly naieve when she married Michael, chose to be naieve...and because of that did deserve everything that came her way. But I don't think she consciously knew she was becoming the wife of a monster...or that he even WAS a monster when they got married.

Apple

I agree that we don't see such a thing in the movie, but in the novel, Kay hears what Michael has done from Mama Corleone when Mike has ran away. Of course you can always argue that movie is different than the book, but that's the feeling I've had when I found out about this in the novel.

The movie is different from the book. Which is why the two cannot always be intertwined.

Just as Fredo is a completely different character in the film(s) than in the novel (from what I hear) ... the Michael/Kay relationship can also be considered different. And in the film, I really get the impression Kay marries Michael with the faith that he's not a monster nor on his way to becoming one. That is why in GFII the character is legitimately able to confront Michael (while dancing) about waiting 7 years for the Family to become 'legitimate'.

And of course the film does not show us that visit between Kay and Mama.

But there's a nice forum to discuss the novel if anyone so chooses.

Apple

Kay went to visit Mama Corleone when she tried to hand Tom her letter for Michael. There was no way that she wouldn't know Mike has killed Sollozzo and McClusky, otherwise why Tom should be worried about accepting the letter as a give away of Mike's whereabouts? Any why Mike should run away right after a police officer is getting killed?

IMO She thought Mike would change. Big mistake!

In the novel, yes I'm sure that's when the visit takes place. In the film, Kay simply asks to call for another cab and that's why Tom lets her in. For a viewer who has not read the novel, there is no reason to assume that Kay then sits down and has a nice chat with Michael's mama.

Of course what you're saying makes sense logically, that how could Kay NOT realize Michael killed a police officer and that's why he's nowhere to be found and she hasn't heard from him. Except you're thinking that from the point of the audience, who already knows these things.

Not being part of that world and being completely clueless as to how it all works (except for the intro she got at Connie's wedding)...Kay might just be so much in love with the boy she met in college that she's willing to just not let herself think about what he might have done to warrant his disappearing from the face of the earth. What's in the letter she tries to give Tom? Not having read the book someone might think it's an 'I love you but am not going to wait around forever it's clear your family has taken priority in your life so I'm going to go on with mine wish you the best Always, Kay' type of thing.

When you haven't read the novel (as many have not) ... it's kind of fun to consider these alternate scenarios because you have no recollection of a book to corner you in.

Which is why there's a very nice forum in which to discuss the novel if one so chooses.

But I do agree with you about one thing, Kay thought he would change THE FAMILY when she finally did marry him. I don't think she yet had any idea as to what he was becoming, what was going on inside him. And it would be several years before she would.

Apple

I already told you, you can assume what you please. Even before I read the novel, I thought Kay be smarted than that and assumed that she knew about what Mike did.

In the novel, I guess she WAS smarter.

That's why there's a very nice forum where those who have read it and wish to discuss it can do so.

Apple

And we can always campaign and encourage people for reading the book here!

I would like to read it someday...have said that here for years.

I like the movies though and right now there's no desire to wade through the Dr. Jules/Johnny & Hollywood crap, Luca throwing babies into fire, Sonny's 'size' and Lucy's 'room'...and all the other wonderful stuff I've read about here on the BB.

But when I do, I'll be sure and visit that other forum often!!



Apple

That brings up another thing that I was thinking. IF (I'm not sure) there weren't any kind of abortion clinics or anything at that time, then wouldn't Mike have had "his doctors" ? I can't see someone in his field going to just any doctor. Is that making sense lol
So along those lines I don't see how Kay would have gone to just any obgyn, wouldn't Mike have had "influence" on the doctor in some way, making it a risk for Kay to have the abortion?

Just more thoughts lol

As afsaneh77 pointed out...if Kay really desired an abortion she was going to get one. A woman of her means would have certainly been able to discreetly seek a Dr. who would perform one even if it were not necessarily the one she was seeing for her pregnancy. Also we're talking about a time when men did not get very involved in the course of the wife's pregnancy and since this was after all not their first child but their third...we can assume Michael, especially as consumed as he was with Business would trust that Kay would be capable of handling the 'medical' aspect of the pregnancy.

God...the things some of you people pick apart can realy make a head spin !!

It's a wonder you can even enjoy the movie.

Apple

It is surprising that michael did not have "his doctors". In the novel, there are extensive references to these types of special doctors (especially in hollywood). Dr.Jules was an expert in handling all high profile cases. He treated Johnny fontane and Lucy. Fredo was supposedly visiting him for some ailment. Dr Jules even proposed to cure michael's broken jaw. If Puzo had more control over the script, I am sure he would have inserted Dr.Jules in the plot by any means

OK, did anyone ever think that Tom was telling the truth and that Kay was lying? If, after all, Michael had such a tight control on her life, including her doctors, perhaps she did have a miscarriage. Perhaps she knew that the best way to hurt him, to completely alienate him, was to tell him that she had had their son killed. Does anyone think that's totally out of left field??

No.

Tom WAS telling the truth, because at the time he told Michael he believed it was a miscarriage.

Kay WAS lying by allowing everyone to think it was a miscarriage...until that moment in the hotel when she admitted that it was an abortion. Judging from the character, Kay did not appear to be the type of woman who would say, "It was a BOY and I had it KILLED..." if it were not true...just to alienate and hurt her husband.

Remember, during that final bout it was Michael who brought up the subject of the lost baby...not Kay.

Apple

SB, actually I think this sounds like a good revenge. Using a miscarriage as a closure. I've thought about it too. It could have been the case IMO.

I don't think Kay was looking for 'revenge'.

She was looking to get out of her marriage, which at this point she considered 'unholy'.

She was also looking to take her children out of that 'Sicilian Thing' life too...which of course was where she failed miserably.

Apple

And here I was going to start a whole thread on why the tomato garden where Don Corleone died is placed on the wrong side of the property for it to get proper sun, and how the tomatoes should have been farther along on that fateful July date.

Kay was lying about the abortion. We learn this in TGR.

Anything written into TGR (including the implication that Fredo was gay) is simply a feeble attempt to capitalize on unresolved issues in GF, GFII, was written by neither Puzo nor FFC and is really not to be taken seriously.

Which is probably why very few who belong to the BB seem to care for it (including DeathByClotheshanger according to his 'review' in TGR forum).

Apple

The only thing I learned from TGR was how to waste my time and money.

Amen, brother. As I have posted elsewhere, I was able to pawn mine off at a used book place for a few bucks, which helped, and then of course there is that extra shelf space at home for something more worthy.

I don't think abortion can be classified as a 'holy' act then. It might have not been revenge but would have been a good closure. Mike would have never given up on her unless she would have done this act and/or have lied about it all along.

Neither did Kay.

And of course, she viewed the abortion as 'closure' for her marriage but it appears she did not intend to admit having it to Michael until he have her a hard time about leaving (which she should have expected). So while not actually revenge...I guess it could be viewed as playing her last hand.

See the dialogue below:

"...oh MICHAEL. MICHAEL you are blind. It wasn't a miscarriage, it was an abortion. An abortion MICHAEL. Just like our marriage is an abortion. Something that's unholy and evil. I didn't want your son MICHAEL - I wouldn't bring another one of you sons into this world. It was an abortion MICHAEL. It was a son MICHAEL, a son and I had it killed -because this must all end.

I know now that it's over now. I knew it then - there would be no way MICHAEL - no way you could ever forgive me. Not with this Sicilian thing that's been going on for 2000 years...!"

Apple

This is a deeper question than you think. While she probably chose to have the abortion for the very reasons she cited to Michael, I think she wanted to tell Michael this all along. She no longer wanted to simply be a vessel through which Michael could get himself a bunch of heirs, which was (in Michael's mind) the means by which the family's future would be secure. Instead, it turns out that the only power she had over Michael was the power to chose not to have his children -- so there was this whole power struggle going on between them, and she trumped him.
There's a great line in this colloquy where Michael alludes to this by saying there have been "things going on betweenmen and women" for all time.

Of course the abortion should be the end of things, but in GF III they seem to go all squishy on one another even though she has remarried.

All the more proof that much of GFIII was silly fabrication in order to get as much of the original cast together as possible. You are right, that abortion SHOULD have been the end of things between Michael and Kay (especially taking into account his reaction to the abortion).

But if that were left as is, there would have been little if any reason for interaction between them in GFIII. Hence the wishy-washy reconcilliation.

Apple

Yes, I totally agree. That is one part of GFIII that always bothered me. Michael was this powerful man who we see, in GFII, manipulate Anthony against Kay, and basically bans her from seeing the children. Then in GFIII, and I realize that it is years later, we see Anthony tied to Kay's apron strings, hating Michael. Then a few scenes later, they are all so chummy chummy again. While I realize that over time Anthony may have grown up to realize that his father manipulated him against Kay, and that Kay was not the monster he made her out to be, so he "changed camps" and went over to support his mother. But this should have enraged the Michael that we knew from GFII even more. Instead Kay berates him, belittles him, and launches this verbal assault againsy him, and then he caves into her demands. Next thing we know is that they are all buddy buddy again, prancing around Italy together and Michael and Kay even make love again! Sheesh! Would the Michael from GFII have ever forgiven Kay for aborting his child? I don't think so.


Don Cardi

Exactly DC. Maybe it was Connie's influence that made him such a self doubting wuss? I dont know. I am still hung up on what the hell Anthony was doing in law school at age 27, and how he became an overnight success as an opera star even though he had no classical training.

Me either, but even if he did...I cannot see them as 'chummy' as they become in parts (the parts I've seen) of GFIII.

I could even see his giving her control over their children's education, as mentioned in his letter to Anthony and Mary heard at the opening of the film. I could see her being a crucial part of the story...in terms of the struggle Anthony has with the Family and his father's past.

The rest of it...nope.

Apple

They made love again??? I never realized that! In Sicily??

I have to disagree with some of the posts here re: Kay and Michael's relationship and Kay's relationship with the children. I think that any divorced couple with children can, in time, make their peace with one another. Especially if they love their children as much as Kay and Michael love theirs. I also think that if we are to believe that Michael was truly trying to be legitimate, then what better place for the children than with Kay? If he truly wanted Anthony to take his place in the "new and improved" Family, then he would want him to make contacts in the legitimate world.

Also, in the beginning, Kay admits that she only came to the party to fight for Anthony. However, I believe that she comes to see a more vulnerable Michael after his collapse. When she accompanies the family to Sicily, I think she begins to understand the roots of his life and background.

Another point, I do believe that when children grow, they can gain an understanding of the "alienated" parent, and may even come to prefer them as part of their rebellion against the dominant parent. This very easily could've been the case with Anthony. As for Mary, she obviously is torn between her love for her two parents. To give her peace, they may well have agreed to be civil to one another.

One more point - Kay wasn't out for revenge?? There was nothing more she wanted than to hurt Michael in the only way she knew how. She wanted to anger him, hurt him, and sever all ties with him. If that's not taking revenge, I don't know what is.

Very well put Sicilian Babe. Great synopsis!


As for them making love in Sicily, I recall either reading or hearing that there was a deleted scene that shows them in the Villa in Sicily the "next Morning." I think that in the version we see in the movies, it is implied that they made love. It also may be in the script.


Don Cardi

Don't you understand? In reality (if this were real in the first place)...Kay would not have even been invited to the party. The children, of course. But not the ex-wife. She would not have had the choice to 'come to fight for Anthony'. And anyway....she could have done that in a backdrop other than the celebration going on. Which in fact would probably have made for a more believable scenario if they had to have Keaton in the movie.

Also, she would not have been invited to the family trip to Sicily. It was ALL fabrication to get a bunch of neato scenes between Pacino and Keaton. And unlike what went on in GF and GFII...almost ALL of it is unbelievable.

But then...so is Vincent and his relationship with Mary, so why should they stop there!!

No, I don't think 'revenge' toward Michael was her motivation for having the abortion. Her big speech (see my post above) makes it clear that the abortion was to stop providing heirs to the Corleone Family and get the hell out. She did not want this baby. Since until that moment in the hotel she probably did not intend to tell him about it...then the only 'revenge' would be in her own mind.

Apple

SB your points are well taken, but this is no "ordinary" divorced couple (if there is such a thing). These were two mismatched people who shared an Ivy League education and absolutely nothing else. When they married after Michael returns from Sicily, they are both marrying ghosts...ghosts of their pasts and ghosts of what each and both of them hoped that Michael's destiny would be other than what it really was.

This was a situation where an assassination attempt happened in the bedroom, where he never went legit...and where she got an abortion. Then he took the kids from her, and then gave them back... how they reconciled I will never know.

Apple, I can understand your point about Kay being invited to the NY party. However, I see no reason that she wouldn't have been in Sicily. Her son was singing at one of the most famouse opera houses in the world. Since she wanted him to be a singer in the first place, do you really think that she would've missed it??

I understand the acrimony between them. All I'm saying is that they obviously loved their children very much, both of them. Love for your child will make you do things that you never thought you would, or could, do. Perhaps over the years, their mutual love for their children forced them to establish a civil relationship. Perhaps I'm romanticizing it a bit, but I don't think that Michael and Kay's relationship in GF3 even approaches the absurdity and unreality of Vincent and Mary's. Although there was a huge old mountain of hate between them, I still find it plausible that they could have reached the place that was portrayed in the movie.

And while I see your point about Kay's abortion, Apple, I still can't believe that revenge played no part in it. If she truly did have an abortion, yes, it was to stop producing heirs to Michael's throne, but it was also a damn good way to devastate him at the same time.

Edited to add that dontomasso's post, which referred to their marriage as one of ghosts, is perhaps one of the most insightful views of Michael and Kay's relationship. Very well put!!

No, I don't think she would've missed it. However, I also don't think she would (realistically) be travelling with the Corleone Family, and most certainly would not be invited to sit in the box with Michael. Again, a woman of Kay's means would've been perfectly capable of travelling overseas to see her son (the one who was in law school until age 27 and now starring in an opera with no previous experience) perform without having to latch on to the ex and his family, the one she once hated because of the Sicilian Thing that had been going on for 2000 years and had to end and so the abortion of her third child would surely do the trick.

Ya follow?


Of course it doesn't. Who EVER implied that ANYTHING approached the absurdity of Vincent & Mary? You're comparing apples & oranges.

Of course she truly did have an abortion. But not really to 'devastate' Michael. You'll recall that when she first walked into the room to speak with him, she was quite amicable, congratulating him on prevailing in the Senate hearings. Kay had no intention of the conversation unravelling the way it did. No intention of telling him about the abortion. I'll remind you again...it was Michael who brought up the lost baby. Not Kay.

I agree !!

Apple

Do you mean that 27 year old law students (27? Was he a little slow? Maybe he took after Fredo?) with no prior voice training couldn't make an operatic debut in Palermo, cast in the lead role of a complex and challenging opera?? Pshaw!

Hmmmmmm....on second thought it's no harder to swallow than same 27 year old's baby sister falling in love with their FIRST cousin, the bastard son of their long dead uncle, who longs to inherit the Family Business from their father who eventually hands it over to him on the one condition that said bastard nephew stop seeing his daughter.

Geez...this is one heck of a family!!

Apple

ps - somebody here (domtomasso?) said Anthony was in law school until age 27. I don't know for sure am just taking it on faith that this is mentioned somewhere in the movie.

Isn't part of the answer to all of this that, in GFIII, Micheal is a bitter, self-hating old man who doesn't want Anthony and Mary to become embroiled in his way of life? In the opening voiceover bit in GFIII, he mentions that he has "entrusted their education" to Kay ... presumably, she is the "safe" choice and will raise them conventionally, keeping them away from Micheal's business and way of life. The same monologue explains why Kay was at the NY party - "perhaps you could prevail upon your mother to come to this ceremony".

Sure, it's a massive change from the Micheal of GFII, but that Micheal was in the ascendency, self-assured and self-confident. The GFIII Micheal is the old emperor in decline, King Lear. His resolve has weakened, and he realizes that although he can make his children safe ("protect them from the evils of this world") by ensuring their material wealth, he realizes that emotionally, Kay is a better carer, given his own inner turmoil and self-loathing. Or something.

OMG, for a moment I really considered if I should repost here everything I ever wrote n abortion and weaknesses of GF2-3 plot. By now, I've decided against it. Hello everyone.

Apple, I hope you know I was joking when I said that, right? RIGHT?

I did once I read your 'review'.

But...breaking from my usual shyness about sharing my opinion...had to respond regarding TGR anyway.




Apple

Anthony would have been seven when he received his first communion in Tahoe, and that was 1959. GF III is in 1979, so doing the math that makes Anthony 27 and still not through law school.


Yesterday I watched GF III for the millionth time and saw another huge continuity flaw. The letter Michael writes to invite the family to the religious ceremony is written in February 1979 (you see this in a brief shot of the actual letter after the scene showing the skyline of manhattan. This means the party is shortly after that, which is when Michael allows the oaf Anthony to go off and become an opera singer. Michael then has his stroke after the Atlantic City hit, at which Joey Zasa is still wearing a bandage on his ear, meaning the timing of that meeting was shortly after Vincent bit him. Michael is recovering from the stroke and Kay comes to visit him in the hospital and there she tells him that Anthony will be performing in Sicily "this Easter." Since Easter is in March or April, this means that Anthony got the gig in less than two months from the date he dropped out of law school.

Yes, I see your point as far as timeline goes, but who's to say that Anthony had not already begun singing several years earlier while still in law school, or that he began singing in his early 20's and started law school later on in his 20's?


Don Cardi

Because, DC when they are at the opera house there is a telegram from Douglas, Kay's extremely tolerant husband, saying that he hopes Anthony sings better in the performance than he sings (note present tense) in the shower. If the kid could not sing in the shower, it means he did not have previous training.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dontomasso:
[QB] Because, DC when they are at the opera house there is a telegram from Douglas..."


You are right, I don't think that Copola would have wrote that in the movie unless he wanted us to know that this was a first time for Anthony.


DS

Ok, I didn't remember that scene.


Don Cardi

DC never tell anyone outside the family what you didnt remember