When does Michael start to change?

When does Michael start to change from Joe College to Don Corleone?

I think its actually earlier than most think... I think its when he tells Kay about Luca Brasi and his father and the band leader. The way he tells it. It was like a swith was turned on. His eyes, his lethargic-like delivery.

thoughts?

Well, change may be the wrong word. He's a Corleone. He has the genetics. Maybe he was just waiting for a way to rationalize his entry into the business on his own terms.

I think it's much later, when Michael proposes the idea of the having the gun planted at the restaurant. 'I'll kill them both. It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business.' His eyes are completely expressionless and I think it's the birth of the monster.

Or it could be even earlier than that. I can't help thinking of the whole hospital scene, with Michael acting completely logically. Also in front of the hospital. Enzo is clearly nervous but Michael, although probably scared inside, projects an aura of calm.

I also think it was at the hospital. When he Says to Vito "I'm with you pop"

I agree also with his line to Vito, "I'm with you now pop". He's seen first hand how the business almost cost him his father. I think he puts away his boyhood ideals of the world. Also, when he lights Enzo's cigarette and he notices how calm his hands are it's like he realizes he's made for this world.

But the scene where he plots the McCluskey/Sollozzo murders, when the camera just slowly pans in on him is eerie. Sonny is still alive, but it's almost as if Michael becomes the Don at that moment.

In 1920, when he was born. It was his destiny.

He decides after the shooting of Vito Corleone. I think it begins when he sees that Luca is dead and that Sonny and Tom wont cut it on their own. That's why he tells Kay to go back to New Hampshire BEFORE he goes to the hospital.

Michael started to change when his father was shot. He progressively begins his transformation between the time that he arrives at the Corleone mall after learning that his father has been shot. He takes his tranformation a step closer when he tells Vito "I'm with you now."

But I've always felt that the real defining moment for Michael, the real moment that he decided to "jump into the life," is the scene in front of the hospital, when he takes the lighter from the Enzo the baker's trembling hands and lights his cigarette . He and Enzo had just faced death when those cars pulled up, and after they pull away Enzo, understandably is shaking uncontrolably. Michael takes the lighter and calmly lights Enzo's cigarette, and looks long and hard at calm he is holding that lighter. I think at the very moment Michael realized that he could live this "life" without any problem. That he was a natural at it. I think that many things ran through his mind at that moment. He also realized that had he not been there to stand outside and act like a bodyguard, his father would have been killed in that hospital. Mike, thinking all this knew that he now must get involved in order to save both his father's life and the family itself. And the McCluskey confrontation only served to confirm what Michael was thinking.

This is EXACTLY it... the infamous lighter scene. At least, this is when we are aware of the transformation.

Michael was amazed at his own calm outside the hospital with the lighter, but that was a combination of many things - being a soldier, for one, being trained.

I think Michael really changed while in Sicily. First, by hearing the news of his brother Santino's death; second, when Michael was betrayed by his shepherd bodyguard and lost his beloved wife in the car explosion.

Back in New York, Michael did what he did to help save his father from Sollozzo - it was a necessary evil, and he knew he had the sack to do it. While in Sicily, Michael showed his sack again when he showed no fear in front of Appolinia's father at the restaurant, being so bold in his desires. Michael was a leader in many ways, but that is not necessarily the makings of a monster.

No, the monster started to form upon the deaths of his brother and his wife. The resentment of it; wanting to enact revenge - it all contributed to his coldness.

wow... so you believe that he had not changed, even after killing McCluskey and Sollozo as cold as he did, before Sicily??? I think the concept of "monster" is so relative to one's POV (in mine, Michael NEVER reaches the level of "monster"). So, maybe by your perception of this concept, Michael didn't achieve it till later, but the turning point of his character is, IMO, the scene in front of the hospital.

As I said, Michael did what he had to do to save his father, and he had the skill from being in combat during the war. He could have gone either way after the murders of Sollozzo and the Captain, I believe, because "it was just business, not personal." Just like killing Germans and Japs in the war was just business.

When his brother and his new wife (and unborn child) was taken away from him, that was the point of no return for Michael. There was no going back to Nice College Boy after that.

Michael did a number of terrible things, including having his brother murdered.

Just out of curiosity, what, in your POV, does one have to do to reach the level of "monster?"

Well, he started to change himself when he was about three years old. Before that his mother used to changed him. If he didn't change until after the War, I'd hate to think of the terrible time he would have had in the Marines.

Just how long have you been in Texas, Mr. Olivant ?

Michael, although he killed to protect his father, might have gone back to his old life when he returned from Sicily. As someone posted above, he might have viewed those murders as a necessary evil to save the life of his beloved father. He might have been involved with the business on some level, but perhaps running legitimate interests (I've always thought that he and Sonny could have had a unique and wonderful partnership, each running their own "division"). However, once he lost Appolonia, there was no turning back from the life for him. He needed revenge.

Almost since I got out of the service. Latter '67.

Well, I simply say that to say that he had justification and logic behind all the moves he made. I think, overall, Michael was actually quite fair.

Michael allowed jealousy to affect his treatment towards Tom Hagen. That wasn't fair to Tom, considering Tom ate and breathed Corleone, and only wished to do his best towards the family.

Since Tom was close to both Santino and Vito, closer than Michael ever was, caused Michael to feel resentment and jealousy towards Tom.

"SELF" justification is how I see it.

Well... while this is a good point and I completely agree with this... truth be told, Tom is NOT his brother or Sicilian either, for that matter. So, while this may not be kind treatment, it is true. And I'm not really arguing whether Michael is "mean" or not (because I do think he is mean and harsh as well). But, as it relates to the life he chose, and his family has been a part of, for so long, he's just, basically, going "by the book".

If Michael is going "by the book," then he is writing new chapters never dreamed of by Vito or even Santino.

Frank, 99.9% of the time I agree with your assesments regarding the Godfather trilogy and it's characters. But this is one time that I must disagree with you in regards to Michael. Buttmonker hits the nail on the head when he says that Michael was writing new chapters never dreamed of by Vito.

In his mind, at the begining of his journey into the life, I believe that he believed that he was doing what was best for his family. And I also believe that he was trying to convince himself that he needed to do the things that he did in order to legitimize the family. But there was a streak of selfishness in Michael. A self serving egotistical trait. Michael grew to love the power. He let his lust for power consume him to the point that he couldn't even discern if he was doing right or wrong when it came to his own brother. And he fooled himself into thinking that he was a legitimate businessman. Michael eventually justified, at least to himself, every horrible thing that he ever did.

In the parameters of mobdom, his killing Sollozo and McCluskey was neccesary. His killing the heads fo the families was neccesary. Many of the moves that he made WERE neccesary in order for him to preserve the family and regain it's power.

But Michael reached a point that went beyond saving the family and perserving it's power. He became so consumed with weilding such power that he began to boarder paranoia! He eventually would do anything to make sure that no one would ever threaten his well being ever again OR take his power away from him. And even if it meant abusing and manipulating them (Tom) or killing them, own family or not.

Tom asked him if he felt he needed to kill everyone. And Michael replied, "just my enemies."

In Michael's mind, at that point, everyone was his enemy.

If as you say Michael was only going by the book, then he would never have seekd the redemption that he did by the time GFIII rolled around.

Oh, correct! I agree that Vito wouldn't have written "the book" (Vito did alot of thing uncustomary to the rest of the members of the crime families involved). When I spoke of "going by the book", I was speaking in terms of "mobdom". I just can't bring myself to judge Michael on the same standards as the rest of the law-abiding citizen world when I KNOW he is, indeed, a mob boss. I tend to hold him to the standard of a mob boss and when I see him being refered to as a "monster", I have to relate to those terms, and I did not see Michael as being particularly excessive (although paranoid at times).

And YES, he wanted redemption by GFIII, but by that time, Michael had pretty much decided that he no longer wanted to go by this book.

With all that said... I do not see anything wrong with either of your (DC & Buttmonker) assessments. I just have a slightly different view.

And as always, some good points.

Well, what about his statements to Kay at the Commendatore celebration? He told Kay that he was trying to protect her and the kids from the horrors of the world. I'm not sure that such statements are consistent with any alledged pursuit of power as a prime motivation. I think, instead, that Michael was mimicking his father. He mistook Vito's wielding of power for simply having power.

I believe that Michael was trying to fool himself by saying that. He certainly wasn't fooling Kay.

I agree. He was only trying to convince himself, again displaying self justification for what he was doing and planning to do. And with Kay, Michael thought that he could still manipulate her and tell her things like this to ease her mind. Michael thought that he could still use his controlling ways on Kay, but he would soon find out that she was not the same Kay that she was when he first took over the family.

The same thing happened in III when Michael said that he was thinking of Kay all the time while he was away in Sicily.

Kay: Then you got married.

Michael: (slight pause) Still thought of you.

In III, Michael can't tell lies the way he used to. Michael's whole existence began crumbling around him, mainly because he stopping being able to lie to himself about his deeds.

Absolutely correct. How is getting shot at in your bed being protected?

By III, I believe that both Kay and Michael came full circle in their own way.

Kay in the sense that she had reached a point where she went back to her original roots, but at the same time became 100% wise to the kind of person that Michael had become.

Michael in the sense that he became remorseful. He too went back to his roots which made him come to the realization that the road that he chose to take did not lead to the destination that he had fooled himself into believing that he would one day reach.

Wow... great stuff... enjoyed reading the responses...

I think it was a few things as well...

1. I'm with you now pop.
2. Watching Sonny as Don... he saw Sonny's inability to be reasonable as a weakness... not to mention his temper. Sonny - more muscle, common mafia hood(I got that from Kay LOL) than DON
3. I believe Michael in GF3 when he says he tried to protect the family from the horrors of the world. He was IMO. The shooting at him and Kay in their bed was something he could not avoid... Fredo.. too close... betrayal. Michael could never see that coming. Which is why he killed him... because it could have happened again and Michael could not see it coming.

I just had a conversation with a counterpart, and he had some very interesting (to me at least) insight... he believes that we start to see Michael's "morph" when he reads the newspaper about his father's shooting. I can definately see this view. Thoughts???

Good catch by your friend Frank.

I always noticed that the first time we see Michael's "eyes" is in that frame of him opening the newspaper. If it's true that the eyes are a window to the soul, your friend is right on the money.

At the hospital.

Care to elaborate?

I can tell you with certainty it was not at the hospital where they went to see Genco in that cut scene.

Maybe it was when he ordered the nurse to move the bed....he got an adreniline rush out of having people do what he says, and from that moment on he wanted to be the boss.

My thoughts are.... you see "those eyes" when he tells Kay about Luca and the Bandleader... you do I swear LOL

I really believe the eyes you see in this scene are eyes of embarrassment/shame.

Disbelief. Shock. His father had been shot and he did not know if he was dead or alive.

oh, DC, I think you misunderstood. I was talking about the look when he was telling Kay of Luca and the bandleader. the good ol' "My family... not me" scene.

My mistake Frank. Sorry.

However I really don't know if he was sincerely embarrassed or was just putting on that look for Kay. I've always felt that his telling Kay that little story was a window for us to see who and what Michael really was deep down. A hint that he WAS indeeed really a Corleone. It was almost as if he was trying to impress her but at the same time make her believe that it was his family and not him. I think that underneath the surface Michael really got off on what his family was and who his father was. And even he didn't realize it himself at that time. Let's face it, at first Michael fooled himself into thinking that he was not like his family. Then when he became a part of his family, he began to trick himself into thinking that he could legitimize the family. But instead he became more and more of a common mafia hood, only pretending to be this legitimate businessman.

I think that he was trying to impress Kay with that story.

Oh ok... no problem. Good point as well. He may have, very well, been trying to impress Kay at that point. Heck, i think this was impressive to him, as well. Before this time, it's clear taht Mike was rebelling against the family completely (being a soldier, getting with Kay, etc.). So... hmmmm... could this, very well, have been when Mike starts to change as ScarFather mentioned??? interesting POV

I don't think that he was begining to change at that point. It has always been my belief that his change occurred when he was standing outside that hospital and scared off the hitmen. I believe that at that point the real Michael, who had been buried away deep down inside of himself, had finally emerged, and he saw it himself. And his being hit by McClusky only served to advance his true inner self to emergance.

He was a Corleone at heart, and the one most like his father. That is why I believe that he was rebellious at a young age. He, like his father, had a mind of his own. He like his father, would do things his way. And after his father was shot, and the family threatened, we see him convince his bother, Tom and the capos to do things his way.

Really, does Michael ever change and from what to what? As DC says, he was a Corleone at heart and was rebellious. He had the genes. Perhaps he was deluding himself by telling Kay that that's his family, not him. In fact, why would he tell Kay anything unless he was proud of it? He was a Corleone , but wanted to do things his own way according to his own schedule.

At the end of Michael's conversation with Carlo his tone changes pretty rapidly when he tells him "Get out of my sight." I don't think Vito would have displayed a temper like that

Vito may not have displayed an "emotion" like that. But the point is that out of Sonny, Fredo and Michael, it was Michael who inherited most of his father's traits.

Sonny had Vito's trait in that he had a fondness for his family, a love for family.

Fredo had Vito's warm heart.

But Michael had Vito's cunning, had his manipulative ways, his patience, and his strong will. He was calculative like Vito. Like Vito he had the mind and the smarts to analyze a person and a situation. The one thing that Vito had that Michael did not have was a warm heart.

You cannot deny that Michael was like Vito in many different ways. More so than the other boys.

Exactly. Vito could get angry; Sonny inherited a propensity for anger. Vito was warm-hearted; Fredo was, also. Vito was intelligent, cunning, and manipulative. So was Michael. Of course, Vito had all of these characteristics which he used opportunely. The sons had only some of them which tended to dominate their actions.

There is an amazing subtly about his transformation IMO, it's my thesis that Michael is a powder keg of Corleone waiting to go off. I.e. he was either in completly or out, there was no in between and that is Michael's amazing quality his persistance and dedication. Back on topic, when visiting Genco (cut out scene), Vito explains that he should finish college but he has plans, Al Pacino, IMO, acts amazingly here and doesn't say a word but expresses disapproval and hesitation and unease here, including respect for Genco's condition and his father. You know if Vito wasn't Vito, he would say "no way buddy". It's true he ALWAYS had it in him, there is no doubt. He was always calm and cool and in the know, he just showed his amazing capacity when the match was thrown by having his father shot.

This all out or in quality about Michael was why he didn't want any part of it, he was absolutly resistant. Michael is proud and wanted to do everything on his terms, but he decided to come in when Vito was shot. This quality is kinda like being a control freak in a sense and is IMO why he has every tom dick and harry whacked that hint at crossing him.

Michael now knew that Carlo had his brother killed. That reaction is normal I would think.

You say Vito would have never displayed that temper(emotion)?... Well... he never had that happen to him(lose a brother)....

Oh wait... yes he did...

A Young Vito displays a "temper like that" right after cutting open Don Ciccio(man who killed his brother, father and mother).

These reactions by young Vito and Michael are somewhat parallel in more ways than one.