for scholars only

I've just read the for scholars only part of the site were it says who tried to have pentangeli killed and I've come up with a theory.


O.k Michael goes to Roth and says it is Pentangeli who tried to kill him (michael), he then goes to Pentangeli and says it was roth who tried to kill him (michael). At this point the viewer does not know who michael suspects and in my opinion neither does michael. He goes to both of them to (soften them up) and judge by reaction who tried to kill him. Roth plays the innocent old man who feel's sorry for Michael (and he's very convincing). Were as frankie see's this as the time were they should take them all out "Let's hit 'em now while we got the muscle!" But don't forget at the begining Frankie want's the Rosato brother's dead. Now when he says "Let's hit 'em now while we got the muscle!" I'm almost certain he means they should kill the Rosto's as well. This tell's Michael two possible things

1) Frankie still want's the Rosato's dead.

2) (Possibility) Frankie wanted Michael to react this way so he orderd the hit knowing two thing's. Either Michael would die. Or Michael would survive think it was Roth and order his, Johnny Ola's and the rosato's death.

So at this time Michael think's Pentangeli orderd it. This is why he tries to have Pentangeli killed. Later on in Havana Fredo denies being involved with Hyman Roth and Johnny ola. But michael finds out through Fredo's stupidity that he did know Roth and Ola. This then forces michael to react by putting his head in his hands in shame. Not only because Fredo has betrayed him but also because he has orderd an innocent man's death. Before this Mike tells Fredo he is going to have Roth killed because he says it was Roth who tried to have him killed. This seems strange seeing as I've already said he almost knew it was Pentangeli. But don't forget he ALMOST knew it was Pentangeli and we know Michael is hardly the greatest risk taker in the world. So to be safe has Pentangeli killed. We soon learn that Fredo gave information about the estate in lake Tahoe to Johnny Ola. To most people this definately means it was Roth who tried to have him killed. But not for Michael he still is not sure so he has both pentangeli and Roth killed. Most would say he had Frankie kill himself because he (Frankie) Had broke the rules of cosa nostra and ("squelld") to the F.B.I and must die for it. But in a way Michael breaks the rule's "You give loyalty to a jew before your own blood." Of course Micahel could be a hypocrite but if he killed Frankie for ratting them to the F.B.I why doesn't he kill Willie Cicci.

I find several holes in your theory. But I'll start by asking you this:

What was Roth's reaction when Michael confronted him about someone attempting to kill Pentangeli?

He started saying how he loved Moe Green and someone killed him (implying michael)

Exactly. And the key part of Roth's reply

"I didn't ask who gave the order -- because it had nothing to do with business!"

translated into his telling Michael not to ask him who ordered the hit on Pentangeli. He was letting Michael know that he knew that Michael ordered the hit on Moe Green but never questioned him on it and therefore Michael knowing that Roth ordered the hit on Frankie should not be questioning him about it because it was strictly business.

But who's to say it was Roth maybe Roth was giving Michael some emotional advice. I mean how on earth does Hyman know that Michael had Moe Green killed.

Go back and listen to Roth's tone of voice.

I think he suspected Michael. He wasn't sure.

With all due respect, I think that you're missing the whole premise of what the conversation in that scene lends to the plot itself.

Frankie was not smart enough (as he admitted himself) to plan such a move. michael knew it was Roth and he had a plan to deal with it. He knew that Frankie's actions could derail his plan, so he imposed constraints on Frankie and required him to work out a deal with the Rosatos.

I know it was Roth who tried to have Michael killed.

Within minutes of the Tahoe attack, Michael was almost certain that Roth was behind the attempt. I believe he saw that Roth had set it up so that Frankie would look like the patsy. Frankie came to the party sore at Michael for supporting Roth and the Rosatos against Frankie. Therefore, Frankie had the "perfect" motivation to whack Michael--and would make the perfect fall guy.
But Michael saw that the plan was too obvious, too pat. Frankie wasn't smart enough to plan the hit, much less smart enough to take over the Corleone empire. So Michael put his "Sicilian cunning" to work. Michael had been horning in on Roth's Western gaming empire since he returned from Sicily. He realized that Roth had been stringing him along by pretending that Michael was his heir-apparent; by doling out little pieces of his empire (like Klingman's share of the Tropigala), and by promising Michael his Cuban interests. Now Michael saw that Roth, not Frankie, had the most to gain from whacking Michael: rid himself of Michael's constant encroachments, take over Michael's Nevada gaming interests, and, by making Frankie the fall guy, turning him into a hunted man--so that the Rosatos, who were loyal to Roth, could take over the Corleone interests in NYC.
I said that Michael was almost certain it was Roth. The clincher: when he visited Frankie, he made it look like he blamed Frankie--and Frankie was turned into jelly by Michael's anger. But when Michael said he wanted Frankie to help him "take my revenge" on Roth, Frankie practically passed out with relief. Sure enough, Frankie said, "Michael, anything..." That's when Frankie passed the test. Then Michael, in one of his most brilliant manipulative moves, said, "Settle these problems with the Rosato brothers." In effect, he told Frankie to take a mortal risk that he wasn't willing to take before Michael's visit. Now he couldn't lose: If Frankie did settle his problems with the Rosatos, it'd be one less worry for Michael. If Roth had the Rosatos whack Frankie, it'd be one more proof that Roth was behind the hit.
This is a very long way of saying that Michael at no time suspected Frankie in the Tahoe attempt.

This scene between Roth and Michael is one of the greatest scenes in all three GF films. There's a lot going on that is unsaid, but which is determined by a careful viewing of it. Basically at this stage of the game IMHO Roth knows that Michael knows that it was Roth who tried to kill him, and he also knows that Michael has to be very careful how he handles this information. Of course he also knows he can still play the Pentangeli card and move Michael out if his assassination plan fails.
By the time Roth made the Moe Greene comments to Michael it was pretty much common knowledge that Micheal gave the order to Kill all the heads of the five families and Moe. Michael had tried to move in on Moe's casino in GF I and Moe refused, and justified his slapping Fredo around. Since a refusal isnt the act of a friend, Michael had the right to move Moe out any way he saw fit. Roth knew that was the business they had chosen, so he let it go. Still Roth is showing rage that Michael killed Roth and he shows great grief at the loss of his protogee. It is a great piece if acting BTW by Lee Strassberg (who in real life was one of Pacino's mentors). Roth is probably also pissed that he like everyone else had underestimated Michael, and IMHO the killing of Moe Green was probably the seed of Roth's long term plan to get rid of Michael. But Roth keeps it all about this one deal by telling Michael he wouldnt want it getting around that Michael was bailing on this deal (a veiled threat) which Michael parries by asking almost rhetorically "who gave the Oder to kill Frank Pentangeli ... I know I didn't." Roth, then brilliantly explodes at Michael about Moe --- which is also a parry because Roth knows Pentangeli is still alive -- so Roth threatens him once more when he says he is going to go take a nap, and when he wakes up if the money is on the table he has a partner and if it isnt he knows he doesnt have one (in other words by the rules of the game Roth would have been within his rights to kill Michael).

Of course by that point Michael was ahead of the game in Cuba cause he'd already made arrangements to get out and Kill Roth.
Of course Roth survived and then Roth went to Plan B, which almost brought Michael down. I think thats what Hagen means by his statement that "Roth really played this beautiffuly."

Outstanding synopsis Don T!




A little bit of trivia about that. Lee Strasberg was, as you said, a mentor to Pacino. I believe that Pacino attended Strasberg's school of acting which is now known as The Actor's Studio.

When Pacino agreed to make GFII, he supposedly was the one who felt that Strasberg would be the perfect one to play Hyman Roth. At that time Strasberg was not very fond of doing movies and favored teaching, writing and the live stage instead. I think that it was something like ten years that Strasberg had not made a movie before doing GFII. It was Pacino who finally talked Strasberg into taking the part of Roth, and from there Strasberg wound up doing several movies over the next few years. Strasberg also went on to act with Pacino once again in And Justice For All. I believe he played the part of Pacino's grandfather.


I've always found it pretty ironic that the student wound up being the one to talk the mentor into taking a role in a movie.

By the way this isn't my opinions I myself am convinced it was Roth all I'm doing is giving some Michael evidence.

I still think the best scene was when a half-naked Roth tells Michael "I'm bigger than US Steel."