ONLY IMAGINE

Only imagine about that:

Could Michael have ordered to kill Clemenza??

Nobody knows what happend Clemenza. He died under suspicious circumstances (reportedly a heart attack, although his soldiers disputed this) shortly before 1958. ¿¿Do you think Hyman Roth is behind this?? ¿¿Could clemenza have done something that angers the Don???

What reason would Michael have to order the death of Clemenza?

Clemenza was one of the only people who stayed loyal to him and probably continued to serve him acting as his eyes and ears in New York.

It's implied in the movie that the Rosatto brothers were the cause of his death. At least that's what Cicci and Pentangeli imply. Now it is possible that Roth put the Rosatto brothers up to some kind of shenanigans to cause Clemenza problems.



Don Cardi

We know that Tessio and Clemenza wanted to form their own family. And Tessio was a Traitor. Why not Clemenza could change his view of the Don after Tessio's dead and after being impossible to form his own family??

Clemenza was, in a sense, given his own family. However he reamined under the Corleone name. After Tessio betrayed Michael, Clemenza carried out his duties for Michael by being involved in the killing of the heads of the families.




Clemenza would have no reason to turn on Michael, and neither Mike on Clemenza.


Don Cardi

I think you're just using your imagination to begin new threads here, which is encouraged, but Clemenza's loyalty was beyond reproach.
We've never been given the slightest hint in any of the movies or the novel that he had would have even considered such a thing.

Is not possible Clemenza had the same problem with Rossato Brothers as Frankie??? Maybe that could be the trouble between him and Michael.

THERE WAS NO TROUBLE BETWEEN CLEMENZA AND MICHAEL !!!!

His bringing up this question does make me wonder about something else though.

Is it possible that Roth backed the Rosatto brothers and in doing so gave much grief to Clemenza, perhaps causing his heart attack?

What doe everyone make of Cicci's line to Fredo "That was no heart attack." What was Cicci implying when he said that?



Don Cardi

I always thought it implied that he was poisoned or drugged. Something to that effect.

I can imgine whatever I want. If you don't like is your problem. I only was traying to make think other people about that,and trying to know other opinions.

As I've pointed out in posts elsewhere, Clemenza, like Vito, is something of a composite. In this case, a composite of at least Joe Profaci and Joe Magliocco, maybe others. Profaci was extremely loyal to Bonanno (even though he was a Don) just like Clemenza was loyal to Vito. Clemenza took over the olive oil business and Profaci was king of olive oil. Although Profaci died of cancer,it wasn't before he got into a shooting war with some of his own men just like it's implied that Clemenza had disputes with the Rosato brothers before he died. Profaci's succesor Joe Magliocco (Pentangeli) died of a heart attack. In fact, the attempted strangling scene in the bar of GFII may have been a reversal of the attempt on the life of one of the Gallo brothers by a Profaci crew.

Abosolutey correct Olivant. Profaci soldier John Scimone who had been kidnapped by the Gallo brothers sought revenge when he was eventually freed. He invited Larry Gallo to a meeting at a bar in brooklyn. At that meeting Larry Gallo was strangled with a rope, by two guys. A cop walking down the street noticed the door to the bar was half-way opened so he walked in and saw what was going on. Scimone and his two buddies ran for the door, knocking the cop over. When another cop tried stopping them, the gangsters shot the cop in the face.



Don Cardi

¿Why Rossato Brothers try to make Frankie think they were killing him by Michael's order? If he was going to die, it wasn't necesary.

This is something that has been discussed probably 100 times here on these boards.

CLICK HERE

In the future you can always use the search feature to try and find the answer to a question that you may have.



Don Cardi

Thanks for the link, there were very good theories about may question.

I agree that Roth encouraged the Rosato Brothers to act up, leading to Clemenza's heart attack. This could have been by design. Clemenza was old, and hardly the picture of health, so the added stress certainly didn't help him.

More likely, the heart attack was merely a side benefit of what was really a Roth offensive in his war against Michael.

I believe Roth's tactics here mirror Barzini's in Sicily - covertly causing apparently minor trouble on the outskirts as part of a larger campaign against the Don.

Then, if it is as you said, Michael should know about Roth's intention. Why did he continue with the bussines with him?

Keep your friends Close,but keep your enimies closer.Then attack when the time is right..

Oh yeah. I should know your answer. Thanks for remanding me this part.

Clemenza was absolutely, totally loyal to Michael. There was no reason for Michael to whack him--none.
BUT:There are many script anomalies in the Trilogy, and some of them create the doubts and possibilities expressed in this thread. First, we have Willie Cicci claiming to Fredo that Clemenza's death "...was no heart attack." Later, in the boathouse, Michael says to Frankie, "Clemenza promised the Rosato brothers three territories in the Bronx after he died...he died, you didn't give them to them." Frankie replies, "Clemenza promised them ugaz...he hated them Rosatos more'n I did."
How explain these differences? Clemenza, as head of the NY "olive oil business," was subordinate to Michael, though I assume Michael kept him on a fairly loose leash. Michael may have pressured Clemenza to give the territories to the Rosatos as a favor to Roth. Clemenza may indeed have hated the Rosatos, but rather than go against Michael, he offered a compromise: the Rosatos could have the territories after he died. Frankie took over, and was trying to get out of the deal by questioning Clemenza's sincerity.
As for "that was no heart attack," I'm guessing it was just a figure of speech that Cicci used to reinforce his and Frankie's position that the Rosatos were bad guys. The probable real reason is sloppy scriptwriting.
As Olivant and DC alluded, the Frankie/Rosatos conflict is based on a real-life NYC Mob story:
Around 1959, Frankie (Shots) Abbatemarco, a small-time gangster, opened some gambling joints in territory belonging to Joe Profaci, one of the original Dons made by Salvatore Maranzano after the Castellemmarese War. Profaci demanded tribute, Shots refused. So Profaci ordered a faction in his family, the Gallo brothers (Larry, Crazy Joe, Albert "Kid Blast") to kill Shots. Profaci promised that he would give the Gallos the gambling joints that Shots operated after they did the job.
The Gallos arranged for Shots' murder. But Profaci welshed--he didn't give them the gambling joints. So the Gallos kidnapped several high-ranking Profaci bosses, and narrowly missed getting Profaci himself. They held them hostage. Profaci called for a meeting of the Commission. The Commission ordered the Gallos to release the hostages, and Profaci to give the Gallos what he'd promised them. The Gallos complied--but Profaci welshed again. This time the Gallos seceeded from the Profacis and started a war. As DC wrote, Larry Gallo was lured to a meeting in a Brooklyn bar and was garrotted by Profaci men, but survived because a policeman happened by and broke it up. The war petered out after Profaci and Larry Gallo died of cancer, and Crazy Joe went to prison for a decade on racketeering charges. Joe Magliocco, Profaci's brother in law, took over the family. He conspired with Joe Bonanno to whack Carlo Gambino and Tommy Luchese. The plot was betrayed by a Profaci captain, Joe Columbo. The Commission forced Magliocco to apologize, pay a fine and step down. Columbo took over the Profaci family. The Commission demanded that Bonanno explain his role. When Bonnano refused, the Commission "removed" him as Don and put Gaspar DeGregorio in his place. This started another war--and another story.

Yeah, I kow this part. But I've got another Doubt. After they try to kill Michael in his House, why did he visit and shout to Frankie in New York??? Was Frankie suspicious o Michael tought it was becouse of the actions between Frankie and the Rossato Brothers??

At that point Michael was unsure of who the traitor was. He visited Pentangeli and Roth seperately to "feel them out".

Then, Michael had tought Frankie could be the Traitor?? My doubt is if Michael thought Frankie could be the Traitor or if he thought that Frankie's problems with Rossato could cause the Attempt on his house?

Again, at that point I don't think Michael was sure of anything. That's why he met with Frankie in New York and Roth in Miami, to get a better idea of who had the most to gain, who was more resentful, etc...

Before to declare, Frankie committed suicide. What about his man, Willie, who declare against Michael? Was he protected for FBI or he die?

It's unclear, although it's certain that Willie was to have been in GF 3.
At one point in the script he had a large part, but Joe Spinell, the actor who played him passed away in 1989 while FFC and Puzo were working on the script. He was ultimately replaced by Joe Mantegna's Joey Zasa.

Probably, after have declared in the Comission he lived protected for the FBI, the same as was going to do Frankie before commit suicide.

Not neccesarily. Read the testimony of Willie Cicci (below), or watch that part of the movie again.

Cicci really did not implicate Michael.



CHAIRMAN

Mr. CICCI, from the year 1942 to the present time -- you were an employ of the GENCO Olive Oil Company?




CICCI

That's right.



CHAIRMAN

But in actuality you were a member of the Corleone crime organization.



CICCI.

No -- uh -- no -- we called it the Corleone family SENATOR -- we called it the family.



CHAIRMAN

What was your position.?



CICCI

Well at first like everyone else I, I was a soldier.



CHAIRMAN

What is that?



CICCI

A button you know SENATOR, come on.



CHAIRMAN

No I don't know. Tell me.



CICCI

Well -- when the boss says push a button on I guy -- I push a button. See SENATOR.



ANNOUNCER

Mr. QUESTADT



QUESTADT

You mean you kill people.



CICCI

I what?



QUESTADT

You kill people at the -- uh -- at the behest of your superiors?



[CICCI's lawyer tells him to say yes.]



CICCI

Yea -- that's right Counselor.



QUESTADT

And the head -- of your family -- is MICHAEL Corleone.



CICCI

Yea, Counselor -- MICHAEL Corleone -- right.



CHAIRMAN

Did you ever get such an order directly from MICHAEL Corleone.



[His lawyer shakes his head.]



CICCI

No -- I never talked to him.



GEARY

Uh -- Mr. CICCI could you, uh -- amplify your answer a bit?



CICCI

Do what?



GEARY

Could you expand on your answer -- I'm particularly interested in knowing -- uh -- was there always a buffer involved -- .



[CICCI talks to his lawyer.]



-- someone between you and your possible superiors, who gave the actual order?



CICCI

Right, yea a buffer -- the family had a lot of buffers.



CHAIRMAN

Mr. CICCI you may find this very amusing but I promise you the members of this committee do not.





Don Cardi

He told he kill other people and that the boss of this was Michael Corleone. I think it's suficient to kill him if I were Michael

One of the holes in the storyline is that Michael obviously ordered the killinig of Tessio, who was Clemenza's equal. The buffer IMO was Tom Hagen who is the only ranking family member present when Willie Cicci himself takes Tessio on his last car ride.

I don't understand what you mean. Cicci kills Tessio??? It doesn't mean he didn't speack for the comission.

In the film, Michael finds out that Tessio is a traitor. He tells Tom to arrange for Tessio to be killed. Tom instructs Cicci to kill Tessio.

For Cicci to say that Tom had orders from Michael for Cicci to kill Tessio would be hearsay evidence in a court. Cicci would have had to hear it directly from Michael for it to be accepted as evidence in court.

No.



Yes.

AppleOnYa

Dakosta -

A member here name Turnbull gave his opinion in a topic that was started a few years back. In my opinion Turnbull's insight on this matter makes total sense. I hope that he doesn't mind, but I did a search and found his wonderful post explaining why he believes that Michael gave Cicci a pass, so I am going to re-post what Turnbull wrote in the hopes that you will have a better understanding as to why Michael did not have Cicci killed :







Don Cardi

Yeah, it's a good topic, and now it make sense. Thank you for your finding job.

I always thought Clemenza was poisoned by the Rosatos.

In the first version of the script of GF2 there was no Pentangeli. One of the main plotlines was the conflict between Clemenza and Pentangeli. FFC and Puzo even left some lines in the script which referred to Clemenza.
Tom to Pentangeli: "You were always interested in politics and history. I remember you calling about Hitler back in '33."
("They should have stopped Hitler in Munich.")