Why was Tom out??

Can someone help me, or just give their opinion as to why Tom was taken out as the "consigliori"? Michael told him it was because he was not a wartime consigliori and who was a better consigliori than his father, but as the book tells vaugely that is not the reason, apart from the reasoning in the godfather 2 I cannot think of any reason for this, Tom to me had always been a careful and considerate consigliori, and dare I say, as good as any Sicilian..

Tom was "left out" because Michael wanted him to go to Las Vegas and be a lawyer for him there. When Vito died, and when Mikey came to his senses, Hagen remained and made a damn fine consigliere.

I think that Michael telling Hagen that he was out was all part of the major plan! Michael and Vito both new that eventually someone would try to kill Michael once Vito died. In essence there was absolutely no one that Michael would be able to trust, so keeping Hagen out of the overall plans would leave one person that Michael could eventually go to in the event that any attempt was made on his life. This became evident after Tessio approached Mike with the offer of a meeting. Then and only then did Michael tell Tom his plan. The Corleones also were making moves in Nevada to get into legitimate businesses, casino's etc., and Hagen would serve better as a legitimate lawyer to handle these affairs without ever being involved or tied to inside illegal family business.
This also became evident in GFII after they shoot up Michaels home! Who does Michael go to? Tom Hagen, the ONLY one that he could trust with his and his families life! Why? Because Tom was kept in the dark and therefore it would have been impossible for Tom to be the one on the inside to set up Mike.

Don Cardi

Thank you Don Cardi for your responce I'm almost there in fuguring it out but toward the end of the book Pg 412 to be precise, there is this section which makes me still wonder what other reason there may be for this...

"I guess you've figured everything out by now "

Hagen nodded "It wasn't hard. Except why you wanted me out of the action. But I put on my Sicilian hat and I finally figured that too."

Michael laughed. "the old man said you would but that's a luxury I can't afford anymore. I need you here...." "...Barzini will set me up with someone close that, suposedly, I won't suspect."

Hagen smiled at him. "Someone like me."

Michael smiled back "You're irish, they won't trust you."

"I'm german-american", hagen said.
"To them that's irish."

It also says Hagen and Neri were too close and Rocco was not close enough and that it will be Clemenza, Tessio or Rizzi, so it can't have been one of those reasons...

Does anyone else have any possible explanations???

According to the GF II script, Tom was having an affair with Sandra Corleone, Sonny's widow.
Although there was mention of a mistress in the movie, nothing is mentioned in the book, but it makes for a possible explanation why he consider, "out".

If what you say is true, the news of Tom Hagen having as his mistress his deceased brother Santino's widow threatens to tear the family apart!

WHAT?!?!?!?!!

Not sure how I missed that Which version of the script do you have??

JG

Tom was Michels legitimate guy, he alwyas wanted to make that happen, and tomz the man to do (so he calls him "lawyer)

xcuse for my ignorance about the family , but whose #2 and his rank? and how can I make the bones? can I ever have own family?

Whoa, you're taking these films pretty seriously Pezzonovante.

You wanna make your bones. Post worthy posts in here just like you have been doing then you'll get the respect of our thing. Otherwise you're gonna have to go into the streets and start murdering people and get into racketeering etc.

Thank you again for another scope at this reason, it's all very thought provoking, I am intrqued by this new idea, but doesn anyone have any other ideas, based purely on the book? Please still continue to give quotes with the films aswell but any based only on the book would be greatly aprecciated.

Tom was not so innocent......

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: MobbingForMoney ]

I think it's because Tom was mediocre as a wartime consigliere. Anybody agree with me?

Yeah, I thought that was the reason when I watched the film, but if you read the passage, up a bit, that I quoted from the book it says "The old man said you would, but that's a luxury I can't afford anymore.." which suggests to me that there is another reason rather than Tom not being good enough, I have gone over nearly every reason, and I still haven't came up with the right one... any other suggestions? Thank you everyone who posted, it good to hear others viewpoint.....

maybe Mike was sort of ashamed of what he had to do and he loved/was in awe of Tom so much that he wanted him out.

Maybe he was the only one he could really trust.I mean he grew up in his family,so he knew that if there were one person he could trust it would be Tom.

By taking Tom out of the picture and building new regimes Michael kept Tom from having a chance of getting involved or being approched then used and if there was a tratior in the family he had some backup to run to. Some one did turn on him at his home and then he turned to Tom...the only person out of the loop so it could not have been him that was approched and turned.

and by the way...Sonny's wife looked rather hot in the movie. so if Tom was keeping her happy he was no fool and only doing his brotherly duty.... for the family.

I think Hagen was out because Michael held him responsible for Sonny's assassination. In the novel, Hagen beats himself up badly after he learns Sonny's dead. If I remember the text correctly, "Hagen knew he wasn't a wartime consigliere...Genco would have smelled a rat."
In both the book and the movie, Michael tells Hagen he's out with the Don and both Capos present. This could be interpreted as Michael's judgment on Tom for Sonny's death. Neri's in that scene. Towad the end of Part II, when Michael asks if Tom is going to leave the family and become "vice president of the House and Hotels," Neri gives a sly look, indicating that he ratted out Hagen, presumably to become consigliere

I think that he got Tom back as a temporary consigliere in the Novel. If you consider the movie, I thought that Al (part III)was more of an "administrative consigliere" whereas Tom was a "part-time consigliere" in Part II (The Sinator debacle)

Another possibility for Tom being "out" is that, in order to go legit, Michael needed someone "clean" to represent him with the various licensing boards and politicos in Nevada. The Don retired to facilitate Michael's takeover and the "legitimization" of the family. By officially announcing that Hagen was no longer consigliere, just a lawyer, and keeping Hagen out of the planning for the big massacre, Michael may have been distancing Hagen from the last vestiges of the "olive oil business." That way, if any of the Nevada entities grilled him on past nefarious activities, Hagen wouldn't perjure himself by denying involvement.

I could never put my finger on it, but for some reason, Mike resents Tom. I have a feeling that maybe he felt the Don was giving Tom too much power over him (mike) and that he should have the right to do what he wants. I get this form the flashback in 2 where mike questions tom "You talked about MY future?" I think that's why that scene was brought in.

Well you can infer many reasons for Tom being out. I think that Mike did want a legitimate front for the things that he was doing in Vegas. I do not think that he ever blamed Tom for Sonny's death, I think that he (Tom)did enough of that himself. If you remember that Don Vito tells him that he never thought that Tom was a bad consigliere but that Sonny was a bad Don. I think that Tom was a wartime consigliere but that he was not prepared that Sonny would go all out like that because after all Tom did tell Sonny that shooting the old man was not personal it was business in GFI. I thinkt that Mike wanted to keep someone on the outside that he could trust with what he loved the most and that was his family if you recall the conversation that they had in Nevada after the assassination attempt. After that when Michael left to go to Florida and Cuba he left Tom in charge. So in all reality Tom is never really "out". I think that was just something to see how loyal Tom really was.

Corleone256

I don't think it's any of these reasons, I too Constanzia have pondered over this section of the book for many hours, but I too, as Tom did put on my Sicilian cap, and with some helpful objectives from my Don (my father) I have came up with a different perspective, it is, of course, purely of my opinion. Tom may not have been the best of consigleri's druring the war but he was never the less good. Michael did love him as a brother, very much so, he was in awe of him, but he had to seek his revenge on Carlo, he did not blame his brotehr Tom, he blamed Carlo, pure and simple. He had to get Carlo close enough to be certain, and to get him close without him smelling a rat he used the excuse that Carlo came from Nevada and therefore he would know the place and would be best as Mike's right hand man,. But think about it, Mike's sicilian, and both Tom and he are very clever people, why ditch Tom for Carlo? He needed to lure Carlo into a false sense of security, he couldn't afford for Carlo to fuck up his plans in this very tricky move. So keeping Tom in the dark and telling him infront of Carlo and Neri made his responses real, raw and felt, Carlo would then be at ease to know he was not being taken for a ride by Michael.
Sorry it was such a long answer but I just thought I should share my thoughts. Good question though!

[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: La signora di fucile ]

[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: La signora di fucile ]

good and quality first post signora.


I was origionally from Paisley the sh*thole of Scotland a while back now. Hows Glasgow nowadays?

To me Tom was a Lawyer. He was a very good Sicilian (although not Sicilian, i mean he executed the Senator Geary set up excellently) and a very good consigliere. But his wartime experience was very limited and not only that but maybe because he wasn't Sicilian "enough" he would never be a good wartime consigliere. Tough times were coming for the move to LV. He had to be out while Vito was alive. I mean who would be better than him as a consigliere.

All this has been brought up a while ago, a little refreshing doesn't hurt.

Michael and Tom are both very intelligent. Sonny can work with Tom, because Tom could play the egghead while Sonny supplied the personal force. Michael and Tom don't complement each other in that way, so if they tried to work together Tom would wither and become resentful and possibly a threat.

I think it was Michael the Great Controller playing to type. Tom was Sonny's choice for a brother, not Michael's. Tom was Vito's choice for consigliere, not Michael's.

I think that, technically, Tom was out because his participation in the massacre would have been a violation of Vito's oath. But such participation would have been a moot point given that a massacre was planned.

Realistically, Tom was out because, as I've posted several times before, Michael blamed Tom for Sonny's death and, in general, Tom's failure to protect the family.